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The number of suicides among boys is much higher than girls - but boys blamed for not seeking help.

Imnotmrabut

April 7, 2017
34 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://news.sky.com/story/boys-urged-to-open-up-about-suicidal-feelings-by-new-campaign-10793258
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Post Information
Title The number of suicides among boys is much higher than girls - but boys blamed for not seeking help.
Author

Imnotmrabut

Upvotes 34
Comments 17
Date April 7, 2017 10:51 AM UTC
(9 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/63zo1n/the_number_of_suicides_among_boys_is_much_higher/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-number-of-suicides-among-boys-is-much-higher.926623
https://theredarchive.com/post/926623
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Comments

[–]orangorilla 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I don't see the blame being passed here

Three times as many boys kill themselves

Six times as many girls seek help

As long as we accept that seeking help actually helps, urging boys to get help strikes me as the best option.

It is hoped the Tough to Talk campaign will help boys struggling with suicidal feelings to realise they can seek support from ChildLine if they are unable to talk to friends or family.

"We hope that by putting the spotlight on male suicide, we can help boys see that they are not alone."

I don't really see much blaming here

"Growing up in the world of football, I know there can be a stigma attached to young men showing emotion and talking about their feelings.

"It can be seen as a weakness but the opposite is true and it takes great strength to open up and reach out for help.

"They don't need to suffer in silence. I would encourage any young person struggling with suicidal thoughts to talk to someone they trust or contact ChildLine."

This is the closest, and even this lacks the explicit feminist rhetoric of "boys do this to boys, it is a problem with masculinity."

Seeing that neither male culture, masculinity, toxic masculinity or patriarchy are mentioned as some kind of way to shift blame to the boys themselves, I'd say this is good.

[–]thatusenameistaken 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It's not just that boys are't encouraged to seek help. They are actively discouraged from seeking help, by peers and authority figures both. Ask any young man who has felt suicidal and has looked for counseling, and you're more likely than not going to learn that he got an interrogation about his being likely to harm others. The default assumption of boys with mental health issues is mass murderer, not someone who is hurting that needs help.

[–]the_unseen_one 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Pretty much. Even professional shrinks can be very belittling or dismissive of men's issues, as I have learned firsthand. It took me cycling through three psychs before one considered my personal opinions of my issues to be valid. And even then they just wanted to pump me with more antidepressants and antipsychotics that didn't help anything.

[–]thatusenameistaken 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Being fair, medicine can help. I'm 100% willing to take whatever meds are prescribed assuming both actual thought goes into the prescription and that they might actually help me. My current experience, however, shows how quick some medical professionals are to resort to the pill crutch.

The nurse practitioner (not even a doctor) at the VA for my first visit to a doctor in a decade wanted to just prescribe me antidepressants without me even seeing a counselor. Primary care my ass. When I told her my main reason for coming in was for counseling, the next words out of her mouth were 'I'm prescribing you antidepressants'. Thank you, no thank you. I had a buddy back when I was in that was mildly depressed and went to suicide watch within 2 weeks of starting SSRIs. I'd like an actual therapist's opinion after seeing them for a few weeks before jumping into that pond. Psychologist, Psychiatrist, or even just a social worker working their way towards one of the two. Now, again being fair, once I talked to the unit counselor (actual psychologist), she was very helpful and understood my reluctance to jump straight on the pill train. She set me up for counseling and a follow up with her in a week if I didn't get a call from the counseling division to schedule sessions.

[–]orangorilla 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That may be, though the campaign seems to aim to fix that, don't you agree?

[–]thatusenameistaken 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not if the help being offered consists of a program designed to help girls. Boys are different, which is why the current school system designed solely to help girls treats boys with problems as problems, as defective girls rather than as boys.

If all of the counseling offered is the same as that being offered by women for women, it's not going to help even if encouraging boys to seek help works. If it's anything like the female counselors I have personally been to, many of whom were either openly disdainful of boys and feel they can't have any real problems, and their advice consists of thinly veiled 'man up you useless twat' reworded, it's worse than not offering help at all.

If they're actually trying to fix it, they need to do something other than repeat the 'boys need to open up' garbage. That line alone is blaming boys for their problems. If boys and men have learned anything in the last few decades, it's that being told to open up just leads to punishment. In school, at home, at work. If and when boys open up they mostly get told their problems don't matter, that girls have it worse, that they need to man up and get back to school/work and be productive members of society to be of any value.

Have you taken a look at the website this article is about? It's hugely teen-girl centric. I'd be surprised if anyone with a Y chromosome was involved with designing any of it.

[–]orangorilla 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I'm talking about the goal of the campaign here, not necessarily the effect they're having.

I assume good intentions, but I'm nowhere near qualified to talk about whether this is going to help boys or not.

From what I quoted in the article, none of this seems to be "boys need to open up," as much as "we want them to know they can come to us." It's the difference between "Tell me what's wrong!" and "I'm here if you need me."

It's hard to shed bad experiences, but I think that there's some kudos to be given to the focus here. I hope that they're approaching it with an open mind. I'd urge you to contact them with your experiences too, it might be that they would take it into consideration so they won't alienate boys like you were.

[–]JebberJabber -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I often talk to suicidal teenage boys and girls online. I usually try to get them in touch with their school counselor, amongst other things. I have never heard of them being questioned about harming others.

It is not a silly thing for a counselor to check if the boy shows signs of resentment / anger / victim mentality, especially in the US because of guns. Some schools might make it a mandatory explicit question just to cover their ass if there is a killing. Anyway none of the boys have mentioned it.

They report the usefulness of counselors varies a lot, many are excellent but as with therapists personal fit is important and that is the luck of the draw. In any case the external resources available to the counselor can be the important bit. In countries with a good public health system there are often psychologists and therapists in a special service for young people, I used this with my boy.

Parents are very variable too. If kids have not already talked to their parents then I advise them to see the counselor first, then get them to approach the parents. Otherwise parents very often brush off psychological trouble with general reassurance, and advice that would be good for someone who is merely a bit down, not actually depressed.

Also parents can be the cause of the problem and it is important that the kid gets in front of someone who can detect that and support them, even though it is practically unknown for kids to be rescued from abusive parents unless there is sexual or severe physical abuse.

I find girls tend to be more mature and emotionally articulate but that varies a lot. It is hard to help people who don't give you much to work with, and boys are more often in that category. Also their expectation that people will care about them can be heartbreakingly low.

[–]the_unseen_one 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is not a silly thing for a counselor to check if the boy shows signs of resentment / anger / victim mentality, especially in the US because of guns

Yes, yes it is. It shows boys that you will yet again be assumed to be a monster for having a penis if you let feelings or problems show, which feeds into why so many hide their issues. You're part of the problem, bud. The small risk of a school shooting does not justify assuming a troubled boy is a killer, when by far the most likely person he will kill is himself.

[–]JebberJabber -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

assumed to be a monster

No. Just checking, in the same way as they do for indicators of suicidality, self harm, bullying, gang intimidation, drug use, parental violence, psychological abuse, neglect, sexual abuse, rape.

I had a very quick search, and it seems counselors clearly understand that like suicides, school killers mainly need to be helped by broad-based improvements in the school environment. Picking them out by screening is not workable, and threatens to alienate them further. The emphasis I saw was on anti-bullying efforts and broad support for kids who are suffering social exclusion or rejection.

for having a penis

No. A penis does not create risk.
Various groups are not at risk. Kids who are not bullied or rejected are not at risk. Kids with a positive outlook are not at risk. Kids who do not blame others for their problems are not at risk. Girls are not at risk.

if you let feelings or problems show

My experience is that boys and girls find great relief from expressing their feelings in a safe environment e.g. to a counselor, a trusted friend or on an anonymous internet forum or Skype call. Face to face is by far the best though, and I try to get kids ready for that.

which feeds into why so many hide their issues.

It is like pulling teeth but getting the kids to reveal their issues to people who are able to help often feels like turning a corner to them. Sometimes their parents are a lot more help than they imagined, sometimes they are a disappointment. Same with counsellors.
It isn't a teacher's job and they have little time but some teachers are great.

Revealing their problems to classmates is much more risky. If they have supportive friends it can work really well, but if they have mental illnesses which are poorly understood it is very risky. Even simple depression and anxiety are not well understood by most people.
I imagine it is even harder now because of the "special snowflake" assholes who have built callousness and aggression to unusual people into their own group identity.

when by far the most likely person he will kill is himself.

True, by miles. But one of the harsh truths about schoolkid suicide is that the school's policies will prioritise covering the school's assets above protecting the student. A dead student is unfortunate but it does not threaten the school. A lawsuit does.

[–]majortom22 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I have never bought the sincerity of the "it takes strength to cry" narrative.

We know it just isn't true and trying to "re-brand" it is going to smash headfirst into the wall of reality.

A real solution needs to be more comprehensive. This just isn't going to work though the effort is of course a major step forward.

[–]orangorilla 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent here.

I think that knowing your limitations is a strength. And that some people need to talk about their feelings.

I'm not saying everyone does, and that's why I appreciate that they say that boys "can" seek help, rather than that they should, or that it's the only way to handle your problems.

It's not "the" solution, but I think it's one that can help for some boys.

[–]thrway_1000 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

https://archive.is/SDFta

[–]samsc2 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

what help?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Could you elaborate? Just curious, I know someone who's going through this.

[–]samsc2 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

there's just generally not much help catered to boys/men. It's almost always tailored for women/girls and so it's just not what men/boys need or want.

[–]McGauth925 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In a certain sick way, this is funny, because girls seek help by attempting suicide.

Since we raise boys to believe it's up to them to solve their own problems, they see much less help available to them.

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