Can feminist men open up a useful dialogue with men's rights activists?

HotDealsInTexas · 2016-10-31T23:08:25+00:00

Can feminist men open up a useful dialogue with men's rights activists?

Yes. In theory. Will this article propose a good way of doing so? Let's find out.

How can men help?

Just looking at that question, your gut reaction might be that we must be past the point where this is a valid line of inquiry. Let them figure it out. Let them be allies. Or better yet, turncoats. Do what the people with common sense say already. In any case, if a man wants to be woke, he can do the legwork. The internet exists.

What the shit does that have to do with the MRM?

It tends to be agreed, though, that the best direction in which feminist men can direct their energies is within themselves, and at other men. They can locate and nix their own misogyny, advocate for change in their workplaces, call out sexism where they see it – do any of the myriad things that women have had to do by default.

Okay, so this isn't encouraging. So far this is reading like "Male Feminist must proselytize and convert other men to the Feminist Gospel.

And in this men have one ironic, unfortunate advantage: other men are more likely to follow the advice and example of men than women, including when it comes to emotional vulnerability, progressive workplace reform, and so on.

...really? Is that why many of the most prominent figures in the MRM are women? Hell, if that's the case, then why does Feminism, a female-led and female-centric movement, have a near monopoly of discussion of those issues from a non-traditionalist perspective?

It's for a collection of these reasons, along with a dose of personal need, that I founded a website dedicated to discussing masculinities and changing the idea of what it means to be a man.

Translation: dedicated to demonizing masculinity and trying to reshape it for women's benefit.

I want the site, Homer, to act as a bridge between the gender-equal world I want to live in and the men who have yet to see the virtues of that world.

Spoken like a true religious person. "I want my site to spread the word of God to the ignorant savages."

The phrases "fighting to end women's violence against men" and "genuine masculinity" jumped out at me. Huh, I thought, a men's rights activist.

For a moment I was proud. Homer was designed to reach men like this. The submission had a calculated, hardened misogyny, though, so I politely rejected it.

And I loved the author's response: "Your bigotry, hate speech and sexism is disgusting."

You loved it, but you dismissed it. Of course.

The appeal is that maybe – maybe – there's common ground here, or even just misunderstandings that could be resolved, if only we'd listen to each other.

Good point. So, Author, this sub's free to browse. How have your attempts to listen been going?

Although protests against the screening faced opposition from some feminists, the view that the dialogue the film opens up is a useful one is hard to defend. Cancelling the screening, though, may only have fed the trolls (read the top comments on the petition page, if you dare).

David Williams, founder of Men's Rights Melbourne, who were hosting the screening, expressed disappointment – with both MRAs and feminists – at the "polarisation" of the debate that led to the cancellation.

That's rich. MRAs aren't the ones who tried to get it censored AGAIN. And it's far from the first time Feminists have used fire alarms or even bomb threats to try to no-platform MRA, or even just men's, messages.

MRA beliefs proceed from the idea that society now perceives men solely as people who use, depend on and abuse women, and that this is feminists' fault.

Strawman.

MRAs miss that, among feminists, new schools of thought are picking apart masculinities and men's lived experiences at a rate of knots.

Oh no, we see it very, very well. And we see that you almost always brand men's bad experiences as "toxic masculinity," blame everything on men as a class ("toxic masculinity" is pretty much a rebranding of "Patriarchy Backfiring,") stick your fingers in the ears whenever anyone mentions that women have a role in policing male gender roles too, and for all your talk of "liberation" your new ideals of "healthy masculinity" tend to have very little room for men who ARE comfortable with traditional masculine traits.

That's where a site like Homer comes in. It might be able to reach out to men in ways women often can't (or shouldn't have to). For this to work, though, it requires that those men wedded to "genuine" masculinities find a place in the conversation, meaning we need to avoid both alienating them and validating their regressive beliefs.

...validating their regressive beliefs? Hey asshole. You wrote this in a fucking newspaper. It's a public website. Us MRAs and our "regressive beliefs" can READ WHAT YOU REALLY THINK OF US. Why the fuck would we attempt to "engage" this?

Saying "it takes a real man to cry" is affecting, but "real man" stuff is got us into this mess. I just think masculinity is more complicated than that.

You've got a good point there. I've complained about the hypocrisy of relying on classic anti-male shaming techniques to push men into "healthy" behavior numerous times.

Even feminist men, though, should only reach so far. MRAs make claims that they respect women, that they just want a place for men and boys in gender discourses. They have a responsibility to prove this – to display solidarity when feminists advocate (as they very often do) for the improvement of boys' and men's well-being. Too often the discourse is little more than abuse.

AAAAHAHAHAHA. We've fucking tried this, and almost every time, we find that the Feminists get pissy as soon as we suggest that maybe if you want to help men's well-being, you shouldn't just assume they know what's best for us. And really? You cited Clementine Ford? Oh yeah, she really cares about men's well-being, what with bullying autistic men with online shame campaigns and all. Hell, her podcast is called The Misandry Hour. And here's more of her shit. A lot of the calls for gendercide are sarcastic, but they seem to be sarcasm used solely to dismiss and mock people for criticizing all the other sexist crap shit says. Here's a great step if you want to prove that YOU care about men, male feminists (and Feminists in general): Stop associating with people who actively HATE men.

When it comes to opening up difficult conversation, however, someone always has to go first. I'm trying – and I'd like to invite men who identify as feminist – and MRAs too – to join in, respectfully.

AAAHAHAHAHA. No. See, the thing about conversations like this is that there needs to be some level of mutual respect from both sides. Now: I can't speak for everyone in the MRM, but I do actually think the "MensLib" school of Feminism does have some good points, even if I disagree with some of their methods and don't believe any movement based in Feminist Theory can achieve gender equality for men without a separate non-Feminist movement for men. But you collectively, and you personally in this very article have made it very, very clear that you have no respect whatsoever for MRAs, our ideas, or just men period. Look at the condescending way you talk about us, like we're tragic, misguided souls who just need to be shown the light and abandon our "regressive" beliefs and our sinful ways.

You've made it very clear that you don't WANT cooperation or engagement. You are not willing to give even the slightest thought to the idea that anything we say might actually be right. All you want is to convert us. You want us to drop everything and join you under the Feminist banner. Like I said, you're no different from a Religious Evangelist who, no matter how much he talks about cooperation and engagement, ultimately doesn't accept the validity of any other beliefs and thinks of us as ignorant savages who will burn in hell if we don't accept his God completely. And the worst part of it is, you don't even have the fucking intelligence to not say it to our faces (or at least on public websites).

Fuck off. After decades of no-platforming, censorship, media smear campaigns, and threats of violence, I think we have the right to demand that YOU go first. YOU give us a sign that you're actually interested in good-faith dialogue.

blueoak9 · 2016-10-31T22:27:39+00:00

What a fucked up mess of an article that was. The idiot is so far from understanding the issues that there really is no point in even fisking the stupid thing.

Xristos_Xristos_III · 2016-10-31T22:16:37+00:00

What the fuck is this?

Is it some kind of extended definition of Poe's Law?

I would normally try to pick out a choice extract or two but it's nigh on impossible - the massive weight of bullshit is simply overwhelming.

It's not just the words he says, but the underlying assumptions behind them.

Blutarg · 2016-10-31T23:50:08+00:00

Male feminists, the only people feminists hate almost as much as they hate MRAs.

Loula_Belle_Aus · 2016-11-01T06:17:37+00:00

[Third time lucky. I didn't know about the autodelete on links to posts in other subs or even naming certain subs. Hopefully I've got everything sanitised now.]

There's a pretty interesting discussion happening on M_e_n_s_L_i_b about this same article. It mentions this post:

Interestingly, they have a post linking to this on /r/ mensrights right now. Based on the comments, I don't think they really want to hear from you guys that much.

I tried to respond, but it seems that I've been muted from posting in that sub, presumably because I've posted here in the past.

Other people have since made more or less the same point I was going to make, but here's what I wanted to say:

Feminists have a long history of smearing men with disparaging generalisations, diminishing or denying men's issues, mocking men whenever they express vulnerability ("male tears", etc), demonising men and blaming them for all of their unhappiness.

Men are not blind to the way that feminists see them, on the contrary they're acutely aware of it. They hear this constant background roar of insults and abuse directed at them by feminists over a period of decades and they've long since figured out where they stand.

Now you come along and say, "Oh, I'm a feminist but I'm a male feminist, so maybe MRAs will be willing to put all the ugly history aside and sit down to have a friendly conversation with me...". Dude, it's just not going to happen, at least not any time soon. Your female feminist peers haven't stopped with the shouty expressions of misandry yet, they haven't even briefly paused.

Do you think Donald Trump supporters could "open up a useful dialogue" with Muslims right now? With Mexicans? Probably not. It takes a breathtaking lack of self awareness to imagine that feminist men could do the same with MRAs at the moment.

2016-10-31T23:29:24+00:00

Both feminists and any self respecting man sees a white knight as a huge joke. This is simply some rad fems observing women like cassie jaye/girlwriteswhat and terms like 'red pill' and trying to employ their own cheap-knock off devices like 'woke' and manginas.

fengpi · 2016-10-31T22:11:05+00:00

Yes because MRAs WILL NOT LISTEN TO WOMEN and we need a man to explain warmed-over Marxism to us.

MisterDamage · 2016-11-01T01:39:48+00:00

An article like this, in a mainstream publication, with "54 reading now" has zero comments? Impossible.

emperorhirohito · 2016-11-01T14:16:25+00:00

MRA beliefs proceed from the idea that society now perceives men solely as people who use, depend on and abuse women, and that this is feminists' fault. MRAs miss that, among feminists, new schools of thought are picking apart masculinities and men's lived experiences at a rate of knots.

Great, what exactly does this have to do with the above claim? Or is it going to be another of those "Oh well society holds men to higher standards than women and punishes them more harshly but this is really an attack on women and an example of misogyny"

double-happiness · 2016-11-01T00:24:34+00:00

other men are more likely to follow the advice and example of men than women, including when it comes to emotional vulnerability, progressive workplace reform, and so on

Could have done with a citation for that, I hate seeing these 'common sense' claims about social behaviour made without evidence. There must be experimental psychology work on gender and persuasiveness out there, after all. That is the sort of research advertisers thrive on.

Men as a group may lose power as women gain equality, but we also gain freedom... I'd like to see an increase in emotional labour by men

'Arbeit macht frei'

thrway_1000 · 2016-10-31T22:30:32+00:00

https://archive.is/mjs67

2016-11-01T05:37:58+00:00

Is there cure for Stockholm syndrome?

AutoModerator · 2016-11-01T06:06:40+00:00

[permanently deleted]

AutoModerator · 2016-11-01T06:07:51+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Deansdale · 2016-11-01T07:40:23+00:00

Apart from a few naive and misinformed individuals, feminists in general never wanted or attempted to open a dialogue with anyone, not even women. If you think I'm nuts just show me one instance of feminists asking women what they think or want. They want to preach and convert and dictate, and if you have different ideas you will be no-platformed, moderated, silenced, fire-alarmed, petitioned, banned. What a strange way of "opening up a dialogue".

AutoModerator · 2016-11-01T15:08:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

andejoh · 2016-11-01T01:36:32+00:00

"Can feminist men open up a useful dialogue with men's rights activists? "

Will they get permission from their feminist female masters?

Title	Can feminist men open up a useful dialogue with men's rights activists?
Author	PeterWrightMGTOW
Upvotes	17
Comments	26
Date	October 31, 2016 9:59 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5afb02/can_feminist_men_open_up_a_useful_dialogue_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/can-feminist-men-open-up-a-useful-dialogue-with.938539 https://theredarchive.com/post/938539

Comments