Toxic Masculinity and Internalized Misogyny vs. Toxic Femininity and Internalized Misandry

Mylon · 2016-07-23T20:08:44+00:00

Very well written. I appreciate the introspective look at real toxic masculinity. However, acknowledging it seems dangerous as the term has already been hijacked to include anything bad men do.

Mens-Advocate · 2016-07-23T15:48:32+00:00

Logical and well-thought-out but will be ignored by our feminist society, to whom toxic masculinity is not being female.

lihtt99line · 2016-07-24T13:37:41+00:00

There is some merit to this sort of rational calculus of what the corresponding terms should be, but I think that it's a bit limiting. Women and men are different, and I think that a simple one-to-one conversion of this kind erases some pertinent differences. Intuitively, I would have thought that toxic femininity is something altogether different from your definition. Namely, that it's the kind of feminine behaviour that you don't really see that much in men (much like you don't see a lot of violent aggression in women): it's gossip, talking behind someone's back, weaving intrigues, and other forms of emotional and psychological abuse everyone knows women are capable of. Put 200 women in even a well-ventilated office building with plenty of wall-mirrored bathrooms and still what you get is a toxic environment spun by mean-spirited jealousy and two-faced back-stabbing.

But then again the whole conceptual domain is blurry and one-sided. "Toxic" is not really a male term ("I heard it said that poison is a woman's weapon" - Ned Stark): it's how women see masculinity on an ideological plane, but truly it is women who are toxic. Toxic masculinity should more properly be called inconsiderate or blunt masculinity.

And yet I have to digress once more, because the illustrations of toxic masculinity do not appear inherently problematic in OP's wording.

Men are strong(er than women, physically) - isn't this a statement of fact? I don't think emotion makes men weak, because I simply don't have any data or conceptual base for it. What I do know from neurology is that men and women process emotions differently: due to some very basic physiological differences in brain function, women process emotions more on the side of the brain where the speech centers are located (which is why they can talk about their emotions easily, remember their emotions in more detail, but consequently also ruminate about negative emotions to the point of depression and anxiety), and men process emotions more on the side of the brain where the motor cortex is located (which is why men's emotions simply don't pass the treshold of conscious thought).
I cannot speak to abuse because I've experienced so little of it in my own life - or perhaps I have and I just don't ruminate on it? I guess people are rude to me and I have been bullied, as everyone has, but there are probably reasons we don't talk about it, just like there are neurological reasons for men's apparent lack of emotionalism. That is, there may be social (and other) factors that we're simply not aware of yet, and probably won't be for some time (seeing as most gender-researchers are women and even male gender-researchers mostly subscribe to feminist ideology).
That men want sex all the time could result from that same brain-part involved with emotions. Namely, men paradoxically have a larger amygdala (the part of the brain that processes emotions) than women, and this very same part is implicated in men's greater responsiveness to visual sexual stimuli. Men get aroused by the sight of a (naked, beautiful, sexy, etc.) woman in a way women themselves cannot understand; with the exception of lesbians, who are "wired" in this regard much like men (emotions are processed in the right hemisphere instead of the left).

In essence, the concept of "toxic masculinity" scrutinized aspects that are really just masculinity. That feminists should see it as "toxic" would seem perfectly natural (from their odd and limited point of view), but it also does away with what has historically been a positive conception of masculinity. Recently I've found something like this in the Ancient Greek concept of aretē, which according to one anthropologist signifies

inner virtue or essence or excellence of any thing. It is related to the name of Ares, god of War, and thus implies unsubduable courage and willingness to fight for a principle; but it does not mean simple street-corner belligerence. It connotes manliness, wholeness, integrity, purpose, moral clarity, decision, and self-responsibility. (Weston La Barre, The Human Animal, 1954: 325)

This, I think, is the idea of masculinity our current generations of men have been deprived of. Most markedly, this moral virtue is not only manliness, but living up to one's full potential. This, I believe, is very much in line with the MGTOW concept of "Male Entropy" - that the only way out of gynocentrism is male self-actualization, characterized by Morality, Creativity, Spontaneity, Problem solving, Lack of prejudice, and Objectivity.

TL;DR - Perhaps instead of playing around with feminist concepts, which are already devalued because they were thought up by muddle-minded problem-glasses-wearing women, we should look to newest science and oldest philosophies to make sense of our situation.

PurpleAriadne · 2016-07-23T23:01:02+00:00

Very well written and as a FEMINIST, I 100% support this type of introspection and questioning.

We do live in a patriarchy, women do not have as much say as men, and the way our world works is a very masculine way. Women have made progress in the past 40 years but I do not define progress as exploitation. "Giving them what they deserve" or punishing a group for past mistakes will not benefit anyone. The amount of control and power one has on one's life should be equal regardless of gender.

Both men and women have to hold each other accountable for the worst of us and not tolerate bad behaviors.

It is misogynistic for those on here to assume that all feminists or women cannot understand something logical. If you want the feminist movement to drop ignorant tropes then you should too.

Another fallacy is women creating clear boundaries and that that is somehow a problem. Women can be attuned to emotional subtleties of a situation that cannot be encapsulated in one law, every situation is different and unique to the people involved.

These are sweeping generalizations of course and the goal of all of this should be choice and to be good humans to one another. How you dress, who you have sex with, whatever your strengths and passions are should be embraced regardless of your genitalia because we are so much more delightfully complicated than those few parts.

v573v · 2016-07-24T12:03:43+00:00

Toxic masculinity and internalized misogyny exist

Men are rewarded for exhibiting 'toxic masculinity' by women. How can the behaviour be truly toxic if there's a mandate for it with highly valued compensation for exhibiting it?

franklindeer · 2016-07-24T03:10:38+00:00

It's all about as well reasoned as the "self hating jew" of 1930's Germany, and that's about how much thought it deserves, none at all.

Title	Toxic Masculinity and Internalized Misogyny vs. Toxic Femininity and Internalized Misandry
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	18
Comments	20
Date	July 23, 2016 1:30 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4u87qq/toxic_masculinity_and_internalized_misogyny_vs/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity-and-internalized-misogyny-vs.945062 https://theredarchive.com/post/945062

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