Reaching a toe out of the closet: expressing men's rights concerns under your real name.

AlexReynard · 2016-06-18T09:09:03+00:00

I'm reminded of times when I've argued with creationists, and have managed to get them to agree to every step of evolution, but they'll stop short and refuse to call it that word.

People think in labels. So don't use them if you're trying to be convincing. People will shunt into oversimplified 'us vs. them' generalizations when they hear words like feminist and MRA, so avoid terms like that. Be cognizant of buzzwords that kill a conversation. When you make a point, try to make it seem like simple common sense.

And wherever possible, try to avoid sounding like you're blaming women. That's another thing that makes people just instinctively get their hackles up. Fair or not. If you can avoid mentioning gender at all, give it a try. Like, 'I heard a lot of kids are overmedicated at school, treating normal behavior as if it's a disorder.'

Also, start with a pro-feminist-sounding statement, and avoid the dreaded 'but'. People rightly make fun of "I'm not a racist, but..." because whenever it's there it usually invalidates the first part. ("I support free speech, but...") Try 'and' instead. 'I really want there to be full equality in the workplace, and that's why I wish there were more male teachers.' Things like that.

I've been arguing for decades. You cannot imagine just how important a little bit of marketing is. People are often very open to new ideas, if you can slip their under their radar. Grease up your words so they slide in easy. ;)

scruffist · 2016-06-18T03:51:00+00:00

I think this is a great idea. My personal view is that it's not so different to come out as an MRA than it was to come out as gay a couple decades ago. Main reasons:

1) It was common for people to think terrible (and completely irrational) things about homosexuality thanks to religion. Well into the 90s some people still considered them pedos and predators. Today, feminists and the media have convinced people MRAs are rapists, misogynists, abusers, etc.
2) By saying you were gay you were basically saying you did illegal things (before Lawrence vs. Texas in 2003). There was a reason gay adoption wasn't a thing. If gay sex was illegal and you did it anyways, you were a criminal, so why would CPS give an orphan to criminals? the logic went. Not so different for MRAs. Nevermind that MRAs don't toe the party line on rape culture and patriarchy, just by speaking out and challenging women on such bs, there may be social media standards, workplace rules, and harassment laws we're violating (or accused of violating) just for speaking up.

The upshot is that I think the same patterns established for gays to come out (in the NOT so recent past, when there was more at stake) could serve as a model for developing a handbook or guide for MRA advocacy. Mostly, this involved understanding yourself and your belief system, talking about it with close friends face-to-face, finding support through community, and then eventually living more openly.

With a quick search, I found these two resources from 2001 and 2003 along the lines of what I mean. Just clear your browser history I guess so you family doesn't think you're going to come out to them as gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Lol.

deathdragon5858 · 2016-06-18T04:18:54+00:00

I have done a lot of advocacy on facebook, under my real name. I have lost friends, boohoo. I lose friends for tearing people a new one for advocating more bullshit for gun laws as well. I went from over 500 friends, to under 100 in less than a year. I just get sick of all the BS that gets posted all over the internets. I was considering retiring this handle and coming back under my real name this week. I get shit on for MRA and also for being a vaper lol.

Sometimes life seems so hopeless, that eating a rifle bullet seems like a good solution. I have been MGTOW for a long time now, getting laid is easy, but I have always been a bit of a romantic idiot. I can see how men's suicide is up there in numbers. Why bother when women just want to take us for a ride, then ditch us as soon as better comes along?

What do I have to look forward to? Working until I drop dead on the job prettymuch. What's the point? Why keep building houses for rich people that don't care whether or not I am eating 3 square meals a day?

weedpussy · 2016-06-18T03:47:19+00:00

I like this idea, although I am personally afraid of being called a creep for being so interested in boys. A safer approach would be to advocate for socially inept young adults between 18-21, to support and guide them when they're in college away from their family for the first time. The guidance would then "trickle down" to their younger brothers or cousins or nephews.

Advocacy for men with disabilities would be more relatable. In addition to those who were born disabled, there are those of us who could lose an ability or a limb at any given time, thus reducing our status to "pitied second-class citizen". In addition to military vets who were disabled at war and abandoned by the family they had obtained for themselves, there are civilians who were victims of unfortunate accidents and are actually being held hostage by "concerned friends/family" while farmed for their disability benefits. Any of these worst-case scenarios could happen to any one of us, and it's important to ensure that there's support. I personally know a blind redditor who is homeless because not even his state's Department of Rehabilitation would help him find a job, and he refused to be a "charity case" and a "burden" on anyone else.

There are shelters for battered women. Why shouldn't we get together and provide a safe space for the guys who lack a support system? My reasoning is, get enough crippled and Deaf and blind guys together to support each other to become economically strong. Who knows, they could donate to Big Brother / Little Brother programs that would provide the youth advocacy you put forth, but I personally think that a more lateral approach is ideal.

angry-neckbeard · 2016-06-18T15:53:19+00:00

Lol, I talk AROUND the issue when I'm anywhere near most people. With a select few I am honest.

There's no way I'm going to put this shit on my Facebook. I would be crucified.

manicmonkeys · 2016-06-20T00:08:46+00:00

I posted a story about men and rape this morning on facebook, usually my posts get 5-30ish likes, and a few comments within a day....this one just got reaction out of a good friend, and that's it. People are so quick to jump on the social media bandwagon with stuff like the swimmer dude, make it about men as victims.....crickets

equiposeur · 2016-06-18T05:42:08+00:00

The atmosphere of fear exists everywhere, academia, media, politics. Feminists don't have to create it, they just need to police it.

The fear comes from our culture: not helping women is evil in the same way as not helping somebody who's lying on the ground. It's perceived even more evil if you say men or boys need more help and women have more privileges than boys and men. Then it's like kicking somebody who's lying on the ground.

That's because almost everybody "knows" that women are treated badly, oppressed and discriminated against. They believe in it so firmly that saying anything else just evokes dismissal, contempt, and hate.

I don't think it's going to change. It's too deeply rooted in us and our culture and thus politically very useful. In the same way I don't believe that "doesn't anybody think about the children" argument is going to go away.

Adanu0 · 2016-06-18T07:10:42+00:00

The only real consequence I would care about when it comes to RL activism is loss of job and home. If you're secure in both of these, the feminazis and all their allies have little to really threaten you with.

Frankly, the Western world is ridiculously polarized regardless. You need a thick skin or at least a lack of giveafuck to step into the minefield that is the gender war anyway.

JebberJabber · 2016-06-18T11:48:17+00:00

You get taken a lot more seriously when using a genuine profile on FB, and I believe most people will behave better. On a throwaway it is too easy to give in to the impulse to be sarcastic or have a rage-spasm.

I'm not so sure about coming out completely though. The label "MRA" is toxic, once you have that stuck on you a lot of people will automatically discard anything you say on gender politics. You will be lumped in with RedPillers, PUAs, MGTOWs, gamers, social rejects, guys who live in their mom's basement and can't cook...

William_F0ster · 2016-06-18T13:30:19+00:00

[1/2]

If you haven't, what is stopping you?

The conversation, such as it is - or even if it ever existed at all - is broken beyond repair at this point; the ‘conversation’ is nothing but a Chinese fingertrap.

Your very existence does more for advancing the cause of feminism than any number of slut walks or mattress carrying protests and so on. Time and time again, your very presence is the story that delivers the proof that:

Many men's rights groups use the term as a front for misogyny while claiming to be for gender equality; some openly supporting patriarchy [from RationalWiki)

And not content with misogyny - that peculiarly nebulous term that can be attributed to a thousand arguments, but also none at all - you are also regularly associated with far right extremists and white power nationalists:

Many of these sites lean right-wing in the political ideologies they promote [ … ] They also blast feminists for their "man-hatred," but they dump copious amounts of hatred on men who don't subscribe to their agenda share their persecution complex. If you don't eat beef jerky for every meal, idolize Chuck Norris, and tell your bitch to make you a damn sandwich, you're probably a mangina and responsible for the ongoing "feminization" of our society [ … ] When confronted with concepts like patriarchy and its results, they tend to go full-tinfoil hat and assume that it's actually a sinister plot by women and the New World Order and/or communists. [from RationalWiki)

While that is obviously a tongue-in-cheek caricature, it is also one designed expressly as a set of tools for derailing any attempt at conversation - and this in spite of the fact that - when pushed - you will often see statements such as this:

There are various specific things that MRAs take issue with, some of which are legitimate issues where men are actually discriminated against. [from RationalWiki)

And:

The list of grievances for MRAs is long. It includes the elevated rate of suicide for men, educational discrimination against boys, economic and workplace conditions for men, violence against men, false rape reporting, fathers’ rights in custody battles, rates of male imprisonment and prison conditions, and the horrors of war. Many of these issues deserve a thoughtful response and the force of an organized movement for address them. [from Jaclynn Friedman, A Look Inside the 'Men's Rights' Movement That Helped Fuel California Alleged Killer Elliot Rodger 2013)

However, the conclusion to both those statements are that these are issues that feminism is already addressing and could find a solution to much quicker if it weren’t for the alleged harassment and silencing of women’s voices, especially online.

You might of course be thinking that citing the RationalWiki is hardly evidence that the game is up, but quite frankly, it is naive to believe that it isn’t: every major and minor political party in the UK now incorporates feminist perspectives and issues into their policies and manifestos - if you don’t believe me, here are five quotations taken from policy or manifesto documents from five different UK political parties (the answers are in [2/2] if you get that far):

1

[Our] party would … Introduce a law to ensure that boards of major companies are at least 40% female

2

All schools – including Academies and Free Schools – should conduct a gender audit of their curriculum to ensure they are using opportunities to promote role models that challenge gender stereotypes – like Marie Curie for chemistry or Grace Hopper for IT.

3

Every day women experience fear, or the aftermath of horrific crimes against them. These are real women; women and girls as victims at the sharp end of the statistics. This suffering is a form of gender inequality and it is wrong.

4

Violence against women and girls is never acceptable, so [we] will put tackling it at the heart of government. We will appoint a new commissioner to enforce national standards on tackling domestic and sexual abuse, strengthen the law and provide more stable central funding for women’s refuges and Rape Crisis Centres. And we’ll work to prevent violence, introducing age appropriate compulsory sex and relationship education in schools.

5

[Our party] is leading a 5050 campaign to encourage the public, third and private sector companies to commit to gender equality in the boardroom. And, [our party’s leader] has already pledged to introduce legislation that will require gender balance on public boards

Only one of those five is extracted from the UK’s Women’s Equality Party and although each of those quotes deal with a different policy area if you just read through them yourself you’ll see they all echo each other very closely with only a hair’s breadth difference between them - it shouldn’t come as a surprise either as all the ideas are coming from the same source (i.e. feminism).

And of course any hint that any of these policies might be worth querying or investigating will immediately see the questioner accused of being a misogynist, likely also a racist, a rape apologist, more bizarrely still, an advocate for rape and sexual assault, a traditional chauvinist etc. etc. The clamour from that is so unreasonably loud that no reasonable voice will be heard or if it is heard it will be thoroughly tainted through such deeply negative associations that the point will be lost.

Edits Corrections

Title	Reaching a toe out of the closet: expressing men's rights concerns under your real name.
Author	equiposeur
Upvotes	13
Comments	30
Date	June 18, 2016 3:27 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4omw3z/reaching_a_toe_out_of_the_closet_expressing_mens/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/reaching-a-toe-out-of-the-closet-expressing-mens.947185 https://theredarchive.com/post/947185

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