The Sword Cuts Both Ways. Former staff volunteer at AVFM gets in pissing match with Paul Elam. Suggests that AVFM should have some financial transparency and Elam should stop using donations to go on vacations in Italy and drunken weekend retreats.

PM_ME_YOUR_GAY_DICKS · 2015-10-10T19:16:19+00:00

I was at that retreat, and was there for the full duration. No one paid my room and board but me. "Drunken" is hardly how I would characterize it, as I never saw anyone drunk. Relaxing and talking with a few friends and fellow activists, sitting on a few porch chairs in the middle of nature, high up in the mountains while some of us gather around a campfire and cook a few home-cooked meals, is a much more accurate way to characterize 95% of what happened.

The retreat was on a shoestring budget. I myself went in a carpool with three other people (that included Paul) in a 17-hour one-way drive to North Carolina from Texas so that four people could save transportation costs. We rotated who paid for gas. On the way there, we booked a hotel for one night because we were exhausted. Each of us paid for his own food when we stopped for food, and we even skipped a few meals to save on travel time and costs. On the way back, instead of booking the hotel for the night and making it a two-day trip back, we decided to drive the whole way back in a marathon drive that saved us hotel costs. Some of us arrived at our homes at 12:30 AM. I finally arrived back at my house at 2:30 AM, being the last person to drop everyone off.

Attila was not at that retreat, as anyone who attended can attest. Because of this, for him to pretend to understand the nature and the costs of the event is not proportionate to what he could possibly have known. Thus, for him to mention it as a kind of "gotcha" is simply out of touch with what people who are truly in the know actually know. People with sour grapes tend to grasp whatever straws they can, and it seems most likely that mentioning the retreat was simply a way to take advantage of the ignorance of others - likely fueled in part by his own lack of knowledge of the event itself.

It appears the accusations of financial misuse are - at least in part - a form of projection on the part of Attila. After comparing all the accounts, it is obvious that Attila was - after hosting numerous events - chasing donations that did not cover what he owed others for services that they had already performed upon his request. Reading between the lines of what Attila says, Attila himself does not deny this. Despite his good intentions, it appears he made several bad investments and executed poor strategic planning that left him upside down. Rather than discontinue this "business model," he continued along that trajectory, which put himself further upside down

It is a curious - and, I think, a telling point - that Paul, in his reply (which can be found here - http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/attila-vinczer-leaves-the-mens-movement-atop-a-dumpster-float-in-a-parade-of-shame/) appears to be publicly speaking for numerous other people in the movement, including Dr. Martin Fiebert, Al Martin, Erin Pizzey, and numerous other high-profile figures who are widely respected. Paul's claim is that these people were not paid the money owed to them by Attila.

If Paul were so dishonest as to put words in the mouths of these high-profile advocates and Attila's claim is correct, they can all publicly call him to account. If such is the case, it begs the question as to why none of them appear to have done so.

TheDude41 · 2015-10-10T22:46:18+00:00

That article was fairly much fact-free.

Paul Elam has done a lot of fantastic things for the MRM. Even if he had paid himself I don't think I'd change my opinion of him.

It's sad to see MRAs squabble over an amount of money that is less than an academic feminist or feminist lawyer farts or coughs on a given day.

Really a sad state of affairs financially for MRAs, and it's sad to see it hold people back.

PM_ME_YOUR_GAY_DICKS · 2015-10-10T18:16:13+00:00

I have never personally borrowed money from the CEO of AVFM save $300.00 one time which was repaid in short order.

This is a lie. Proof. We may not all agree with Paul Elam's actions and words, but this is a blatant lie. I don't trust Attila as far as I could throw him.

Which activist with limited means provided any money to my benefit? How many destitute activists have you taken money from, Paul?

This is also a lie, unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if I am). Proof. The activist's name was ~~Tim Viers~~ Tanveer (e. now, I'm not sure if this is an entity or a person, but that's what was posted in the transcript).

aesopstortoise · 2015-10-10T19:40:11+00:00

It strikes me that lessons to learn from this are for all parties to be more businesslike in their dealings, and perhaps to either go for smaller gatherings or raise all the money first and have a dedicated account for expenses.

ee4m · 2015-10-10T20:12:36+00:00

The average wages for a non profit ceo are 120k.

Elam should make money and be able to take breaks from his very stressful position.

Funny how most mra's guard their reputation from attack and mra anon. while not understanding what Elam risks by making himself the lightening rod for the mrm.

And on top of that, there seems to be no shortage of mra's wanting to put the boot in too.

2015-10-10T17:36:30+00:00

This guy Paul Elam is a cunt.

Gryphoneer · 2015-10-11T01:48:21+00:00

Does anyone not see this coming. Whether elam is a nut, or gathers nuts to him, it's all the same. Unprofessional and embarrassing.

People doing actual research need to stick with it and outlast people offering nothing but demagoguery and hype. Who remembers them a few years after they're done? They flaunt the hype as if it has value in itself. Things of value don't need hype to be worthy. Guys like elam do more damage than attention is worth.

Karissa36 · 2015-10-10T21:06:39+00:00

Thank you to whichever Mod changed my flair. I couldn't find that one and it is appropriate.

TheActivist1 · 2015-10-12T10:58:11+00:00

I have seen this all over the net. I was going to join AVFM but it seems AVFM does not treat members or volunteers very well.

Does anybody know who at AVFM publish a letter this Atilla dude wrote? Why would Paul Elam accuse Atilla of beating his kids then say he has no knowledge of such a thing? Has Paul Elam ever shown the public how he spent money donated to him? What was he doing in Italy if his pockets are full of dust? Is Paul Elam the leader of the MRM pack and who put him in charge? Does Paul Elam record everybody and make it public? That is not very nice.

So far it looks to me Atilla Vinczer is open while Paul Elam is a bully who hides how he spends donations. I am not sure I will join AVFM. So far they look like really nasty people especially this Paul Elam guy. Can't even figure out what this guy is doing for men.

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