Camille Paglia: How Bill Clinton is like Bill Cosby

[–]pnw_diver 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mochacola 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

No. She admires men. And she definitely has a distaste for modern feminism.

What she thinks of Clinton-Lewinski still does not affect her ability to recognize all the great things Clinton had done and continue to do. She even dissed that if Clinton's scandal happen today, all the negative hysteria will wipe out all great things he had done. Read carefully.

She sees men capable of doing extreme crimes and achieving extreme greatness and even both at the same time. She is not one of those, "He cheats, he's like other men."

When she was explaining how she look at the situation, she even had to made a disclaimer she was not trying to blame Bill's mom. She was taking the issue all the way back to child psychology and references to human nature in historical contexts.

She's beyond what we normally use to judge. She analyze and probe.

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I did read the whole thing, although I can understand you thinking my reaction was knee-jerk, based on my comment above.

I get what she's talking about, and I agree with a lot of it. Camille Paglia is not a dumb woman. Quite to the contrary, I think she actually approaches gender politics with a very refreshing degree of consideration for their inherent psychosocial complexity—a rare thing to see, without a doubt. In general, I quite like and respect her, based on what I've read.

But...she can also be quite hyperbolic when she wants to be, and I personally think she overestimates the role of gender-relevant sociological elements like power in individual relationships here. I don't deny that they're at work to some extent in all relationships (romantic or otherwise), but they are not the only factors in play, and...well, not to make a rude pun (okay, fine, totally to make a rude pun!) sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I see no reason to suspect that the lofty power motives Paglia is asserting are the best explanations for these men's behavior. Cosby could simply have thought that drugging a girl and raping her while she wasn't conscious was a great way to conceal his crimes. Likewise, the idea that Clinton was merely a womanizer who was addicted to female attention—or simply that he was a complete horndog—seems perfectly adequate to explain his actions. There is simply no need to bring sexual power dynamics in to explain them. Said dynamics are typically much more subtle in their impacts on human behavior, and I think one of Paglia's faults is that she's a bit too "into" them, and credits them with too much direct influence over people's behavior.

But, more to the point with regards to my previous comment, I think drawing parallels between the motivations of a serial rapist and a serial philanderer is both erroneous and toxic to the public discourse on gender. I have no idea why Cosby did what he did, but I am certain he had very different motivations than Clinton. Drawing the comparison implies a connection between what might be termed "excessive" romantic interest in women and the much darker, nigh-sociopathic motivations we tend to see in serial rapists. It suggests they are on the same spectrum, that the serial rapist is simply a more extreme version of the womanizer—this is just not true, and encouraging people to think of rapists this way subtly promotes the idea that all men, to some extent or another, have a budding rapist inside them. The truth is that serial rapists of Cosby's caliber are deeply disturbed individuals, whereas rampant womanizers like Clinton might have some issues, but are ultimately far less pathological. Comparing them is apples to oranges.

[–]queefofengland 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Drawing the comparison implies a connection between what might be termed "excessive" romantic interest in women and the much darker, nigh-sociopathic motivations we tend to see in serial rapists. It suggests they are on the same spectrum, that the serial rapist is simply a more extreme version of the womanizer...

First, i think the Clinton Cosby comparison was forced by the publication. the article touches on A LOT of different points in a way that seems (to me) as free flowing (but pretty well formed) thought.

Second, it also seems like Paglia assumes that the reader knows about Cosby's fetish for necrophilia (other sources confirm it, specifically firsthand accounts of women who would have consciously slept with Cosby if they knew that's what he wanted) and Clinton's sexual deviant past (there have been similar accusations of rape against him).

So basically, the title of the article is bad and Paglia mistakenly assumed that the reader was aware of facts that were not made explicit in the article.

[–]mochacola -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

She was questioning the need for these powerful men to have sexual partners who are almost entirely passively inactive in their sexual relationship. That is the thing in common.

She was using the two of them as a group, where they are men of extreme power seeking women with absolutely zero power in their sexual dynamics. Comparing them to other men in power who rather have mistresses that benefit from these relationships, so it's mutually beneficial for both. She also talking about why feminist movement had failed to allow mutually beneficial sexual dynamics to happen.

Keep in mind Paglia does not subscribe to feminism's binary idea of consensual sex vs rape, and considers all sex to be risks, not in terms of rape, but that when sexual powers overtake human body, it's unpredictable. And she see it more as dynamics at play between male and female, both during sexual interaction and relationship outside of it.

I remember Paglia did not buy the story a woman who was mistress of a Kenny who cried rape and Anita Hill's allegation of sexual harassment because Paglia felt those women knowingly use their sexual powers to gain advantages, as oppose to our view of consent vs misread signals of consent.

So, in Monica's case, Monica might felt she was having fun with Bill, but she's not aware she's being used, not aware how fast she will be thrown into the dumpster, but Bill is fully aware of it. No different than a manipulative woman who knows who she can use and abuse a man in a relationship through marriage and divorce, ruin his life, and just throw him away. This guy is a full adult capable of making decisions, but in this dynamics, he had no clue what he was getting into, against the woman he married.

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[–]mochacola 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Her point was, Bill Clinton could have a mistress who also take advantage of what Bill's power has to offer. But Bill would have none of that. Monica did not end up with using her sexual power for whatever gain she could have, a more luxurious lifestyle she couldn't afford, a better political career, whatever, She was just used, and when shit hits the fan, dumped. But I think camille Paglia is unaware of the republicans out to persecute Clinton. From what I can remember, Monica was basically abducted by a bunch of men into a hotel room where they forced her to tell on Clinton. Till this day, she is reluctant to say what happened in that hotel room in fear of retaliation. Camille Paglia also blamed feminist movement's failure to help Monica.

Camille Paglia believe women's sexual power can overwhelm men, which is true. I think it's pretty scary for men if women did adopt her view decades ago. But, at the same time, she also preaches women to truly understand men and nurture boys to what men need. So, men's desire to be loved by women would be fulfilled from childhood, to teen love, to sexual relationships, and there is less fear for men to be struggling sexual power with women despite women have the power in this dynamic.

So, for example, if Bill Clinton's mom had more understanding of male sexuality and masculinity in a positive way, and be aware of it as she nurtured Bill, maybe Bill won't have felt the need to have absolute control in a sexual relationship. To water it down, a mom who is disgusted at her son's healthy male sexual behavior AND/OR denied her son's "boys will be boys" masculinity, she would probably inject a negative impact on the boy to search for a need where when he expresses his sexuality, he won't be judged or challenged.

[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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What did Lewinsky got out of it? Nothing. How many manipulative bitch got off more from marrying some middle class guy and divorcing him?

Did Lewinsky got to use their relationship to blackmail some deal out of Clinton? Nope. The thing is, if Lewinsky is sharp and knew how to use that power, Clinton would have want nothing to do with her.

It is no different than a gold-digger preying on some dude who she knew would do anything to feel he is wanted. If the gold-digger sensed the power play is not easy for her, that the guy is protective of his finances and is aware of family law and is a MGTOW, she look for other preys where she has full control in this power dynamics. As oppose to say where a woman wants financial gain, but prefer players who want benefits out of their relationships while also aware of what she really wants.

[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]mochacola 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

We are not talking about fun, fun, fun.

Talk to a guy who is contemplating suicide over a divorce, and ask him why did he get into relationship with that woman.

We are talking about power play where one party is fully aware of the nature of their relationships and the other is totally oblivious.

Did Lewinsky even cut a deal with the Republican mob crew that coerced her in a room for hours till she cooperate? No, because she still expected Bill to protect her once she talks. She had no clue of the nature of their relationship.

I had always felt she is a victim long before this article. In most of these types of scandals, the woman gets off with huge benefits. Her life was almost ruined. No different than a guy getting his entire life screwed over by narcissistic bitch who knew she was in it for his money and see no value in him as a human being.

And I am saying this as one of the biggest fan of Bill Clinton too, for his Clinton Global Initiative, and also for him getting Warren Buffet and Bill Gates on board to commit to serious philanthropy. Paglia also stated if Bill's scandal happened today, he will be crucified to a point where all his good deeds would be discredited, which means, she also thinks that would be an unfair punishment. And most of all, Paglia blamed Hilary for not supporting Monica, and feminist movements for not helping Monica. In that sense, she's very much a feminist that women should take care of female victims. In short, she is disgusted at Bill Clinton for the extreme power dynamics, but she also faults it at women in a cultural sense ( Bill's mom in this case ) creating men who fear sex to be on even power play. Because women refuse to look at sexuality with a curious eye to understand male sexuality and nurture men accordingly.

[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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Like I said, ask a guy who is conned into a relationship and went bankrupt. So, was the guy abused?

That, versus a woman who knows she has sexual power to offer to wealthy men where she can gain financial power or career advantages with little effort, while these are men who understands she is gaining benefits from them. And these men's lives remain unscathed when she breaks off the relationship.

That would be the reverse situation.

Lewinsky did not, at any point in time, use their relationships to blackmail for anything, and she was very reluctant to talk when she was coerced to. And later dumped by both sides.

She knew if it came out that the president would go into cover up mode.

Actually, she didn't. She expected Bill Clinton to figure a way out to protect her. That was how bad it was. Just like a guy being ruined in a divorce still wondering why his woman did that to him.

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There are so many funny bits in this article:

"What bigger power differential could there be than between the president of the United States and this poor innocent girl? Not only an intern but clearly a girl who had a kind of pleading, open look to her–somebody who was looking for a father figure."

"My publicly stated opinion at the time was that I don’t care what public figures do in their private life. It’s a very sophisticated style among the French, and generally in Europe, where the heads of state tend to have mistresses on the side. So what? That doesn’t bother me at all! But the point is, they are sophisticated affairs that the European politicians have, while the Clinton episode was a disgrace."

er… UK Lord snorts cocaine off two prostitutes' breasts whilst wearing a bra:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3174689/Lord-Snorty-Blair-crony-responsible-behaviour-peers-filmed-taking-cocaine-200-night-prostitute-s-breasts-romp-two-escorts-discounted-flat.html

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Title	Camille Paglia: How Bill Clinton is like Bill Cosby
Author	trot-trot
Upvotes	13
Comments	52
Date	July 28, 2015 9:26 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3ey6n9/camille_paglia_how_bill_clinton_is_like_bill_cosby/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/camille-paglia-how-bill-clinton-is-like-bill-cosby.974484 https://theredarchive.com/post/974484

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