It's not "patriarchy" anymore, it's society.

KrisK_lvin · 2015-01-16T10:22:46+00:00

Amongst other things, Patriarchy is a concept which says that no one succeeds in their own right, that every achievement comes at a cost paid for by someone else.

So according to Patriarchy theory, men earn more than women not because they work on average more hours than women per working week and not because they tend to spend more years at work (no time off for childcare, waiting longer until retirement age) but because they are gaining that additional share of the wage pie by taking it out of the mouths of women. The same goes for the executive all-male boardroom - those men are not there because of any effort or talent on their part but because of a concerted effort to exclude women from these environments - again suggesting that women pay the price for men's 'illusory' success - this leads to lots of pseudo-Freudian/Derridean ramblings about empty phalluses and the illusion of male potency and etc.

The theory is a gross simplification and total nonsense to boot (IMO natch) mainly because it would only be true if they were an absolutely finite set of social and material resources which it would be possible to distribute equally, but that's not generally how society, the economy or even ecosystems work.

But anyway, it's hardly surprising that Feminism would naturally be against a movement for Men's Rights because the very existence of such a notion is an affront to the key concept that men succeed through the exploitation of women's resources.

If I were you in your shoes, I would avoid arguing Male oppression full stop because it sounds like a borrowing from politicised/academic Feminism - as that theory is nonsense you would hardly want to make use of it by adopting their methodologies.

Stick to actual legislation, actual public policies, the recipients of actual government funding etc. etc. and ignore all this bullshit about 'oppression'.

It's not 'whining' to describe in detail the ways in which, for example, the court system tends to exclude the male parent from issues of childcare except when it comes to maintenance.

iainmf · 2015-01-16T09:08:25+00:00

Feminists often claim that men can get a raw deal from patriarchy 'enforcing gender roles' and that women have 'internalized patriarchy' or something like that. I can't see how pressure to conform to social norms requires a patriarchy or even how to distinguish between a patriarchy and just social pressures.

What the concept of the patriarchy does is demonize men, and allow feminists to claim they deserve some kind of restoration for being 'oppressed'.

I support the cause of feminism

I think there is a distinction between supporting women's human rights and being a feminist. Feminists believe that the underlying cause of gender inequality is patriarchy, and the solution is to 'smash the patriarchy', whatever that means.

2015-01-16T12:32:29+00:00

I was with you for a while, but you lost my support with, "I support feminism, whole heartedly".

I support equality under the law with the equal application of the laws... not feminism.

I support human rights for all... not feminism.

These have nothing to do with feminism regardless of feminists lying rhetoric.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-01-16T12:42:12+00:00

I've noticed when I bring up the issue of Men's Rights I'm often confronted with the saying "that's patriarchy at work" or some shit like that. Though it doesn't feel like that anymore, it feels as though the patriarchal standard has become just that, a standard, and through that is no longer patriarchy, but a new societal belief that is now accepted as the status quo.

That's because many feminists will equate "patriarchy" with "traditional gender roles." The assumption they make is that traditional gender roles considered men to be superior and more valuable than women.

In reality, what we have is a society which values gender-traditional-persons of both sexes. Obviously this is bad for trans people and intersex people and for gender-atypical people of either sex.

Traditional femininity is hardly undervalued.

Cysioland · 2015-01-16T13:26:30+00:00

So much this. I actually feel, as if men aren't allowed to compain, because they need to „man up” and „stop being a pussy”. What hurts me more, is that it's said by the other men.

chocoboat · 2015-01-16T14:35:26+00:00

The "patriarchy hurts men too", and half the people imposing that sexism are female... so if all "patriarchy" means is "all of the sexism in society that affects everyone", why would you give it a gendered name and act like men are responsible for it?

Why not just use the perfectly good word "sexism" or specifically "sexism in society"? Why is there a need to pretend like the men of today created the sexism that's out there or are more responsible for it than women are?

KrisK_lvin · 2015-01-16T15:59:13+00:00

Just to add to what I was saying earlier, another post here links to this story http://unews.ca/ladies-first-smu-prof-suggests-classroom-rule/ which is a perfect example of the idea that every perceived deficit is a result of theft and oppression.

In this case, an educator is arguing that women should be allowed to speak first in any debate or any classroom to prevent men from taking over and dominating the conversation.

You see it's not the women's fault that they don't participate in class as much as men, it's the men's fault for 'stealing' more than their fair share of discussion time from the women.

Thus, for equality men must 'give back' what they supposedly take by not speaking until women have spoken first.

It's such total bullshit I can't believe they get away with saying this out loud in public and hardly anyone ever seems to bat an eyelid.

Lurker_IV · 2015-01-16T08:17:30+00:00

What brings you around here? I did a quick look at your history and see you don't usually come around these parts.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-01-16T08:04:29+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

ExpendableOne · 2015-01-16T19:52:25+00:00

When "patriarchy" could essentially be defined as women choosing to put men on pedestals, or expecting men to live up to higher expectations, because they don't want to be accountable for their own opinions or decisions, then it really shouldn't have been called "patriarchy" in the first place. Women, as individuals and as a collective, have always had power to influence, to reinforce, to support or to dictate. Whether it's today, fifty years ago or a thousand years ago. A system where women essentially have all the perks of power but none of the blame, burdens or drawbacks really isn't a "patriarchy".

2015-01-16T20:34:48+00:00

Men and women are different, and just like it's impossible to say that an apple and an orange are equal, you can't say that both men and women, with their near-infinite number of differences, MUST be equal in every way. Who can say that they are equal once either feminists (which is a broad spectrum in and of itself) or men's rights activists (also a broad spectrum) think that men and women are finally equal?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you don't balance a scale by lifting the side you are rooting for as hard as you can, or pushing down on the side you don't as hard as you can. Likewise, you aren't going to solve gender issues by constantly blaming "the patriarchy", society, or whatever other entity you think is the pinnacle of injustice in the world.

If you want to truly see what the difference between men and women is, what the costs and benefits are, and how they experience the world, the best way is probably to ask someone who has lived and interacted with people in public as both a man and a woman. There was that lady who dressed up as a man, took classes on how to present herself as masculine, and generally approached social situations as a man for something like two months, and realized that while men and women aren't necessarily equal on an issue-by-issue basis, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. There was also an AMA a while ago where a transman talked about how he got away with almost everything when he was a girl, but when he transitioned, he suddenly had to defend all of his opinions and actions, no one complimented him anymore, and he was picked on for random things, which he attributed to people holding back just because he was a girl before he began his transition.

That "being picked on" because men can take it is one of the reasons that men's rights activists aren't taken as seriously as feminists. It's the verbal equivalent of "men shouldn't hit women, but women can hit men", so when men verbally "hit back", it's called whining. It's mentioned all the time on /r/mensrights that if feminists really did want equal rights, that they would also be fighting for equal alimony ruling, equal parental rights, and equal rights to work in mines/oil rigs/selective service, but those things aren't the lofty ideals that feminists dream of when they think of "equality". Feminists aren't thinking about all of the negative aspects of masculinity when they're knocking the idol that is "The Patriarchy", which is one of the reasons men's rights activists don't appear to take feminism seriously. This community here on Reddit is pretty good about being open-minded when it comes to criticism (you don't see feminists who come into /r/mensrights banned for asking a question or commenting once with an even vaguely-dissenting opinion), but it isn't the same in places like /r/feminism or TwoX. This double standard is exactly the sort of thing that exemplifies the feminist movement, and why it isn't taken as seriously as the loudest feminists demand.

As for "The Patriarchy" becoming a standard, it's not a clearly-definable entity. No matter where you draw the line between what's patriarchal and what's not, hundreds of people will jump up and claim that the line should be further back, or didn't go far enough. If you compound that for every issue that society deals with, you'd never get anywhere, and that's where we are right now. It's the exact same case for the feminism movement itself. You say you "support feminism whole-heartedly", but no one feminist can define feminism in such a way that every other feminist agrees completely, or even in a way that falls into line with the term "feminism".

Title	It's not "patriarchy" anymore, it's society.
Author	Amphabian
Upvotes	19
Comments	16
Date	January 16, 2015 8:04 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2slzkz/its_not_patriarchy_anymore_its_society/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/its-not-patriarchy-anymore-its-society.990390 https://theredarchive.com/post/990390

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