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Article by Olivia Fane

PutsWomenOnPedestal

October 13, 2024
0 upvotes
/r/ExRedPill

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jan/28/sex-love-communicate-erotic-hormonal-closer-hug

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Post Information
Title Article by Olivia Fane
Author

PutsWomenOnPedestal

Upvotes 0
Comments 28
Date October 13, 2024 1:20 PM UTC
(1 year ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/1g2pibg/article_by_olivia_fane/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/article-by-olivia-fane.1533206
https://theredarchive.com/post/1533206
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Comments

[–]Rozenheg 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago (15 children) | Copy Link

She’s factually wrong. People with good sex lives who stay together report that it does get better with age. Even over the age of 60, 70 and even 80.

For more information about the people who have stellar sex lives, read ‘magnificent sex’, by Peggy Kleinplatz.

Some of the people she interviewed had sex in the context of a love relationship, some had more casual connections. Plenty of people for whom it was part of a profound connection.

So it depends. But her thought process doesn’t seem based on a very thorough investigation of the subject.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Even over the age of 60, 70 and even 80.

How is it possible to even get it up at 70? Viagara?

profound connection.

I came across this article because I was trying to understand how sex could possibly be related to connection. An emotional gap that I can’t get my head around. Atleast for me, connection is synonymous with “plantonic”.

[–]Rozenheg 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Some people can and some people can’t get it up. Luckily, erections aren’t necessary for satisfying sex. In fact, intercourse and penetration aren’t always a part of satisfying sex.

Have you any guesses about why sex and connection seem like they can’t go together for you?

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Have you any guesses about why sex and connection seem like they can’t go together for you?

There are two issues. First, I associate connection with platonic relationships. Such as with close friends. Mixing it with sex seems like a strange idea. Second, even if they are mixed, I am not able to grasp how sex would be improved by connection.

[–]Rozenheg 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Is this something you would want to be different, or do you think you would rather look for partners who feel the same way about connection and about sex?

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Oh I’ve been married for a long time. I’m just trying to understand why I have failed, why I am unable to relate to what Reddit thinks relationships should be and to come to terms with it.

[–]Rozenheg 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I’m assuming that you are experiencing conflict about this in your marriage. But of course I could be wrong.

I’m still curious what it is that makes it seem like connection can only be associated with platonic relationships, for you. What is the quality of a non-platonic relationship that makes it incompatible with connection? What makes that so?

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Well, sex is shallower than connection. It isn’t obvious to me what one’s got to do with the other

[–]Rozenheg 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (7 children) | Copy Link

What makes sex shallow? Is it possible that sex exists that is shallow and sex exists that is not?

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Is it possible that sex exists that is shallow and sex exists that is not?

Um… no?

This is literally what Marcus Aurelius had to say about it: Or making love—something rubbing against your penis, a brief seizure and a little cloudy liquid. Perceptions like that—latching onto things and piercing through them, so we see what they really are. That’s what we need to do all the time—all through our lives when things lay claim to our trust—to lay them bare and see how pointless they are, to strip away the legend that encrusts them.

[–]Rozenheg4 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Much as I appreciate Marcus Aurelius as a writer and a thinker, that’s still only one description of one person that seems a bit lacking. Also, it might be a fair description of male ejaculation, but it certainly doesn’t describe sex at all, and not even the orgasm itself. Let alone the full dimensions of sex and its possibilities for bonding and connection between people.

So I’m wondering if you have a tendency to see things as very black and white and to be very certain of your conclusions.

And if so, might that be hampering your ability to see different aspects of sexuality and connection?

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

hampering your ability to see different aspects of sexuality and connection?

Yes, of course, hence my post. My impression is that it is almost entirely psychological. It isn’t the physical act itself that’s so enjoyable but the anticipation/significance that the connection gives it. This is reassuring because it is effectively no different than the enjoyment I get from using erotica fantasy to enhance the act in my mind. I’m guessing the same dopamine regions are being activated. If medical tech was more advanced and cheaper, we might get the same effect with direct neural stimulation

[–]Rozenheg2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure, but everything you’re describing is happening only in your own mind. But we also have regions in our brain dedicated especially to entraining with and connecting to and with other people.

Would anything change if you considered the role of other parts of the brain being engaged in a shared activity that may involve other people?

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal1 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m actually not sure. Is it the same dopamine areas being stimulated or other areas when emotional connection is involved? My knowledge of neuroscience is limited. Different activities seem enjoyable in different ways so it might feel different. On the other hand it’s possible all sex-related dopamine highs occur in the same place. Another question is does it even matter. If eating an amazing meal gives similar level of enjoyment as great sex then why bother pursuing sex which is harder to get than a good meal atleast for the middle class

[–]Rozenheg2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The emerging field of relational neuroscience tells us that yes, they are definitely different fields.

Could it be possible that a good meal and a good sex fulfil different needs in us?

If you want to learn more about relational neuroscience, I recommend ‘wired to connect’, by Amy Banks.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I will check out the book, thanks

[–]meleyys 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The whole time I was reading the article, I was thinking, "Speak for yourself, lady."

I'm sure sex and love don't go together for everyone, and that's all well and good. But they definitely do go together for some of us. Sex is significantly better for me when I'm in love. Sex without love can be fun, but the connection is the best thing about sex. The feeling of being deeply intertwined with someone, of hyperfocusing on your shared pleasure--that's what makes for great sex. Not picturing someone hotter than your partner. At least for me.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

but the connection is the best thing about sex. The feeling of being deeply intertwined with someone, of hyperfocusing on your shared pleasure--that's what makes for great sex.

Can you elaborate? This is the crux of issue that I’m failing to imagine. None of the erotica I’ve read portrays this. Any fiction recommendations that demonstrate this?

[–]meleyys 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Honestly, the best depictions I've found of this deep connection have been in horny fanfiction. I admittedly haven't read too much non-fanfic erotica, but in my experience, fanfiction focuses far more on the emotions of the characters than does original erotica. Which is part of why I find it more appealing.

It's pretty hard to describe that connection. Imagine trying to explain what chocolate tastes like to someone who's never had it. You could tell them that it's sweet, and you could tell them that it goes well with caramel, but you couldn't really convey the essence of what makes it chocolate through words alone. That said, here's my best attempt to describe what sex while in love feels like:

You get really, really focused on the other person and what's going on between you two. The rest of the world ceases to exist for a bit. You feel a profound love for them, and their pleasure feeds into your pleasure and vice versa in a glorious feedback loop. It feels like your whole brain lights up. Nothing matters except them and your shared pleasure.

That's what it's like for me, anyway.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I see. Thanks for the clearer description than any I have yet seen. I suspected a feedback loop simply because some comments said connection causes good sex and some said vice versa.

This raises a deeper question of goals. Should someone who hasn’t experienced this try and seek this out? My “research” is partly driven a need to understand my own failures in sex and relationship. But now I wonder if this is any different than an asexual person having FOMO over not experiencing sexual desire.

[–]meleyys 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

As I believe I've told you before, I think you may be on the aromantic spectrum. So perhaps your relationships are necessarily going to look different. Of course, it's also possible that you've simply had the wrong partners and/or the wrong kind of sex.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have avoided using the word “romance” for this reason, and simply asking about the mechanism of sex vs connection

[–]bluemagex2517 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This lady is incredibly dumb in my opinion. She thinks for two week course on sex therapy in the 80s given to her as training to be a probation officer qualifies her any any way to make the claims. 

Sex doesn't require love, but to say they are antithetical is truly divorced from reality. How can someone communicate with other humans and come to that conclusion? I'd imagine she has mental health issues that prevent her from experiencing sexual arousal with someone who she is emotionally connected. Instead of going to therapy to work through those issues, she just assumes her problems are normal and universal. Then she writes a book and and article above how everyone is the same as her and her problem is a feature not a bug. Then some ethically challenged editor picks her article for publication.

Many people have incredible sex with people who the have deeply intimate romantic relationships with. It's incredibly common. Sometimes that sex is cuddly cute sex, which some people prefer. Sometimes that sex is hardcore roleplaying. The BDSM world isn't full of crazy adrenaline junkies who fuck complete strangers every night. It's full of loving caring couples who beat each other and talk dirty for fun. But then they do aftercare, which is more lovely dovey stuff.

This lady's article wouldn't have been so bad if she just made it clear that this was purely her individual experience and others are obviously different. But, writing like a self centered narcissist is sadly a requirement for editors to choose your unresearched drivel for their papers.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

She thinks for two week course on sex therapy in the 80s given to her as training to be a probation officer qualifies her any any way to make the claims.

That was bit odd, I agree.

she has mental health issues that prevent her from experiencing sexual arousal with someone who she is emotionally connected.

I was asking because I have the same issue.

[–]bluemagex2517 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How does your wife feel about this? Does your experience of romance vs sexual arousal affect your marriage?

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No idea how my wife would feel about it, since I haven’t discussed it. Until I started lurking in this sub a few years ago, it would not have occurred to me that arousal and emotional connection were in any way related.

As to how it affects my marriage, what yard stick should I use? By western standards of Reddit my marriage would be considered a farce since I did not go through the stages of courtship and romance that seems to be a requirement for a bonafide relationship. Apparently my sexual experience is a pale shadow of what men with emotional connection to their wives experience. I accept it though I don’t really understand. I may have some FOMO regret but that’s as pointless as an asexual person feeling FOMO over not experiencing desire. We are what we are.

[–]bluemagex25171 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

western standards of Reddit

Reddit isn't some special different place. We're just people on here. You've referred to Reddit's opinions before, but Reddit doesn't have opinions, people who use it do. It's quite a rude and dismissive way to talk about them. It's also not the 1800s, the sharp distinction between eastern and western civilizations doesn't exist in that manner anymore. There are differences, but you're clearly overstating it.

By western standards of Reddit my marriage would be considered a farce since I did not go through the stages of courtship and romance

I thought you were Indian? Or am I remembering that wrong? Romantic love within a marraige is quite common even in arraigned marraiges. You don't need Western dating to form an emotional connection with your spouse. Just because a matchmaker or your parents/family helped choose a spouse doesn't mean marriages are fundamentally different. Those marraiges can and do develop strong emotional connections.

This seems very similar to when you said most men would perfer to date multiple women throughout their life instead of marriage or monogamy. How much contact with other men do you have in real life with other men that you think loveless marriages and a desire for non-monogamy are common? This strikes me as possibly you projecting your beliefs and experiences onto others. I don't mean that as an attack, but maybe something you should reflect on.

We are what we are.

We can often change though. Or at least learn to cope better with the problems we have.

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