Examining the statement "when men actually ask for custody, they get it most of the time"

Oncefa2 · 2020-08-26T17:45:59+00:00

There's a lot of research demonstrating a bias against fathers who ask for custody. This paper cites a bunch in one of the footnotes:

See id. (noting that fathers who seek custody prevail in half or more cases); Mason & Quirk, supra note 228, at 228 tbl.2 (citing statistics showing that fathers won custody in forty-two percent of custody appeals, mothers prevailed in forty-five percent of cases, and twelve percent of the cases involved some form of shared custody, including 9.2% with split custody and 2.8% with joint physical custody); Massachusetts Report, supra note 227, at 825 (finding that fathers obtain custody in 70% of cases). But see MACCOBY & MNOOKIN, supra note 13, at 103-04 (finding that mothers obtained their preferred custodial arrangement twice as often as fathers); Bahr et al., supra note 208, at 257 (showing that fathers in Utah were awarded sole custody in only twenty-one percent of disputed cases, mothers received sole custody in fifty percent of cases, seventeen percent of fathers were awarded joint legal custody, and thirteen percent had split custody); Fox & Blanton, supra note 101, at 261 (finding that when fathers in California sought joint custody and mothers sought sole custody, mothers prevailed in sixty-seven percent of the cases)

The numbers differ because different states have different statutes and legal standards. One study only shows a small bias (42% vs 45%) but others show much larger differences (21% vs 55%, "twice as often", etc).

Note that the Massachusettes study, which sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of this research, is known to be fraudulent. And there are a couple of papers floating around that cite this source in isolation, sometimes by proxy (ie by citing a paper that cite that paper). I'm not sure why, but many people don't want to accept that fathers are being discriminated against, so this study gets cherry picked quite a bit.

The tldr is that the data from that study actually shows that fathers who ask for custody are a full 6 times less likely to get it compared to mothers, which is obviously evidence for discrimination. The authors pulled some academic shenanigans to make the results look different from what they are though.

The history of how that happened, and how one researcher was able to get ahold of the raw data (that they attempted to suppress), can be found here:

Rosenthal, M. B. (1995). Misrepresentation of Gender Bias in the 1989 Report of the Gender Bias Committee of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. Breaking The Science.

http://www.breakingthescience.org/SJC_GBC_analysis_intro.php

Note that even these studies which demonstrate a bias in the family court system fail to show the full picture. Mothers are given custody as a legal default in most places, and it is up to the father to find the money to hire a lawyer to fight this in court. So there is a selection bias where only the best equiped fathers with the best arguments for custody, and the most money to fight it, are the ones who show up in these sources. And they still tend to lose.

Also the reason fathers don't ask for custody is because they're on an unequal legal footing compared to the mother. Many lawyers will even tell you not to bother. That it's too expensive and you won't get much out of. So you're better off keeping your money for what limiting amount of time you are allowed to have with your kids.

I mean the fact that women get custody by default and men have to ask for it and spend thousands of dollars fighting in court is itself a problem that needs addressed.

duhhhh · 2020-08-26T18:46:13+00:00

I believe it is true with significant selection bias. It goes like this: Men who think they have a case... and can afford the legal bills for both sides + child support + alimony + a 3br appt so the kids have someplace to sleep when with them, and their lawyer thinks they have a case ... often get 30%+ custody.

matrixislife · 2020-08-26T19:37:33+00:00

They will be going by the absolute letter of the law there, ie. the father has to be in court and make a formal request for custody to the judge.

The problem is that most fathers who want some form of custody have already been talked out of applying for it by their lawyers as they know the court will shoot it down. The few men left to actually request it are the ones who have an airtight case, the mother is unfit and demostrably so. So yeah, they'll actually get custody more often than not.

If you look at the actual numbers of fathers who want custody vs those who get it you'll see there's a huge percentage of those who don't get anything.

romulusnr · 2020-08-26T18:59:33+00:00

They may be able to get partial custody, but not primary custody. In some states the deal is you form a "parenting plan" or "parenting agreement" and in that agreement you hash out how decisions about the child will be made between both parents, including visitation, support, schools, living environment, etcetera.

But much of the time custody is contentious and fought for by both parties.

Egalitarianwhistle · 2020-08-26T23:41:27+00:00

Weeks ago somebody made the argument that it's survivor bias. Only the men who have a chance at getting custody try, (as advised by their lawyers.) So the ones who try have a better than average chance since those who don't try, probbaly wouldn't have gotten custody.

By only looking at half the data it can distort the resuts.

welcometothejl · 2020-08-26T22:13:47+00:00

I am going to draw from my personal experience for this response. It might be true, but you have to factor in that almost everyone who goes into a child custody hearing is going to be advised by a lawyer. Most men aren't even going to fight for custody, not because they don't want it, but because they will be advised that it would be extremely costly and they are unlikely to win anyway. In the case of the men who do fight and win, I believe it is probably because their lawyers actually believe that in their particular case there is enough evidence to actually win.

In my case, I didn't fight for legal custody. It seems like a lot of feminists are quick to jump to the conclusion that I didn't want custody while simultaneously jumping into the victims role of, "now I am forced to be a stay at home mom." That wasn't the case with me, and I am willing to bet it's not the case for most divorces. I actually have 50/50 physical custody of my children, but I don't have legal custody. What does that mean? It means I get to spend half of the time with them while still paying their mother full child support. Does that seem like a fair deal? Well it isn't.

Men need to band together and change the laws to reflect that our contribution to raising children has value. We should be able to choose how we support our children. If I have 50/50 custody, I am by default incurring half of the costs. I shouldn't also have to pay someone else. It's really that simple.

leftwingrightwingall · 2020-08-26T17:39:33+00:00

Biased sampling. When a man asks, he most likely already has a huge chance to win the battle as there is probably something severely wrong with the mother.

Also most men don't ask and acquiesce to their former wives/partners wishes. Threats of rape, abuse etc are always there but deep down we all realize children are best with their mothers first (in most cases).

Title	Examining the statement "when men actually ask for custody, they get it most of the time"
Author	goldenjuniper
Upvotes	74
Comments	27
Date	August 26, 2020 5:35 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ih3cff/examining_the_statement_when_men_actually_ask_for/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/examining-the-statement-when-men-actually-ask-for.1062907 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062907

Comments

Rosenthal, M. B. (1995). Misrepresentation of Gender Bias in the 1989 Report of the Gender Bias Committee of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. Breaking The Science.