What problems do you see in current mainstream MRM (and other male spaces)?

mewacketergi · 2019-07-24T00:08:54+00:00

Off the top of my head, I can see these trends:

Anger, spilling over to the point of self-destructiveness. Understandable, but very, very counter-productive. If some trouble young man were to go on a school shooting rampage in the name of the things male advocates fight for or oppose, it can set the movement back a decade or two.
The tendency to occasionally adopt the worst traits of the feminist movement, as if they have successfully defined the "rules of the game" for years to come, in particular the copying of their science denial, and implying that things we don't like must be necessarily socially constructed.
An all-too-eager participation in the victimhood culture, forgetting about our agency and capacity to change things. We are so much more than victims of this and that!
Focusing of antagonizing feminism and its quasi-religious propaganda far too much, perhaps even overstating the influence they have on society outside of academia, instead of focusing on what we can positively do to support each other as men, and what we can change, and having an external locus of control have been correlated to many negative outcomes in psychology.
A certain "echo-chamberisheness" of the male's advocacy spaces that reinforces negativity. It's uncertain how avoidable that is in a gender-based subreddit.
Faction splintering and bickering with each other instead of finding common ground on the big-name issues despite disagreement on the particulars, or on politics unrelated to the men's rights advocacy.

serpentineeyelash · 2019-07-24T05:47:48+00:00

As the creator of this subreddit, I will copy-paste the relevant sections of what I've already written in the Mission Statement.

Why is a specifically left-wing male issues subreddit needed?

Arguably a major factor in the recent growth of the far right is their use of men’s issues as a wedge to recruit men to less egalitarian values. Many right-wingers are adopting men’s issues talking points as ammunition against the left, without much thought about the deeper implications. But we don’t support right-wing or far-right groups because of their stances on other issues, and because we believe their anti-egalitarian ideology offers few real solutions for male disadvantages. Men’s issues deserve more than lip service.

We do not want the right-wing to be the only game in town on men’s issues. When men’s rights advocacy is tied to far-right politics, it alienates mainstream left-wingers, attracts disruptive protests from antifascists, and is easy for the media to demonize.

In existing men's rights spaces, left-wing voices tend to be drowned out by centrist, right-wing, and far-right voices.

Therefore, left-wing male advocates need an online space to discuss and develop our own ideas on how men’s issues relate to egalitarian causes, and a language through which we can talk to the left about it. Also, the very existence of this subreddit will provide visible evidence that left-wing male advocates do exist, which will help counter propaganda that only right-wingers think about men’s issues in a feminist-critical way. We will show it is possible to criticize feminism from the left rather than from the right.

Where do we reject the mainstream political spectrum?

Conventional gender politics is organized into two major tribes, the traditionalist right and the feminist left. Both camps perceive men as the traditionally powerful gender and perceive the traditional "patriarchal" system as benefiting men. Consequently, both camps tend to assume advocacy for women is inherently left-wing and advocacy for men is inherently right-wing. These associations, arguably an accident of history, place male advocates in the difficult position of being lumped in with the traditionalists.

But we believe neither the traditionalists nor the feminists are truly interested in what is best for men. Each often seems more interested in socializing men to be maximally exploitable by that political tribe, or at least its female members. For traditionalists that means socializing men to be strong protectors, for feminists it means socializing men to be weak enablers, but neither cares much about addressing men’s problems. Men deserve a movement for male interests.

We shouldn’t reject the left’s sociological imagination just because we disagree with their current conclusions in one area. Arguably, evidence of male disadvantages can be found stretching back through the entirety of human history, back into prehistory and even the evolutionary past that shaped our biology. So any effective movement to address men’s issues needs to be willing to potentially question the very roots of human society.

Feminists present their ideology as an egalitarian project for gender equality and a radical break with traditional gender ideology, and consequently many critics of feminism are anti-egalitarian and pro-tradition. We reject both sides of that debate by questioning the assumptions that feminism is egalitarian and a total break with tradition.

How do we differ from right-wing anti-feminists?

Here are examples of ideas held by some right-wing anti-feminists which we might want to critique or debate on this subreddit:

* Opposition to egalitarianism, which undermines any ideological basis to criticize feminism's fake egalitarianism and demand equality for men too

* The assumption that men truly dominated in the traditional “patriarchy”

* The assumption that today’s social problems are caused by too much equality

* The assumption that feminism is too intersectional

* Blaming the problems with feminism on left-wing ideologies like Marxism

* The assumption that postmodernism is inherently feminist, when postmodernism’s nuanced understanding of power could instead be used to criticize feminism

* The belief that we live in a meritocracy

* Placing the burden entirely on individual self-improvement to solve any societal inequality, which exacerbates male hyperagency

* A belief that it is desirable or even possible to return to past social structures

* A tendency to push traditional male protector/provider roles and shame men who don’t measure up

* Apologism for male-on-male bullying

* Support for infant male circumcision, which is an unnecessary mutilation of defenceless babies

* Opposition to pornography, which is a source of pleasure for mainly men

* Rhetoric about sexual “degeneracy”, when demonization of sexuality is a big part of how men are demonized

* Slut-shaming of women, which makes sex riskier and more difficult for men too

* Opposition to abortion, birth control, and/or state funding thereof, which help reduce the accidental pregnancy risk for men too

* Opposition to welfare systems, which could instead be improved through greater awareness of male vulnerabilities

* Opposition to welfare for single mothers, which leads to harsher enforcement of child support obligations on non-custodial fathers

* Opposition to basic income proposals, which might lessen the male provider role

* Tendency to support investor rights over workers’ rights, worsening working conditions in the most dangerous jobs which are done by primarily men

* Support for tougher policing, border security, and counterterrorism which results in the imprisonment of mainly men

* Demonization of third-world men, particularly Muslim men, as oppressors of women

* Support for wars which kill primarily men

* Possible neo-fascist “clubs” recruiting young men as street-fighters, which is dangerous to those men as well as to their political opponents

* Needless alienation of trans people, who could have been natural allies of men’s advocates due to having experienced both sides of the gender coin as well as the bigotry of TERFs

How do we differ from feminist Men's Lib?

The last few years have seen an increase in feminists and pro-feminists advocating for some male issues. This includes the reemergence of a movement called Men's Lib, who believe they can help men without blaming feminism.

Feminist interpretations of male issues tend to be skewed in subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways that benefit women. For example, feminists sometimes say they want fathers to be more involved as parents, which would also help enable women's careers. But if a father wants to continue to be involved after divorce, or if a man wants to avoid being coerced into parenthood in the first place, suddenly many feminists' support for male liberation evaporates. Feminists also tend to assume everything is rooted in male power and insist that everyone use male-blaming jargon like "patriarchy".

Men's Lib have been widely criticized for controlling the discussion, imposing limits on how men’s issues can be discussed, and censoring anyone who they consider too critical. A cynic might suspect that many feminists are co-opting male issues talking points only due to external pressure.

We believe that any honest approach to men’s issues must criticize feminism, for all the reasons outlined here. It must speak from an unfiltered male perspective, rather than being distorted and sanitized to align with women’s interests and shoehorn into the flawed feminist framework. It certainly must not give feminists a privileged position in the discussion.

azazelcrowley · 2019-07-23T23:15:14+00:00

I like mensrights, it's good for its purpose. I'm here because I'm interested to see how left wing politics can further the discussion. I think we can be more open about a tax and spend policy to help mens issues and get into the details more without having to word it around non-economic lines.

MarsNirgal · 2019-07-25T17:44:21+00:00

MensRights doesn't seem to advocate for men, only to bash women and feminism. Still, I like that along with things like /r/OneY or /r/AskMen are a few spaces where one can discuss the problems of feminism, although I don't like the way they usually do it.

Same with MGTOW. For a group that claims not to need women, it seems to focused on how much they don't need women.

I don't touch the pill subs, sorry.

MensLib... I have mixed feelings about it. The biggest one, in my opinion, is that it seems to offer no perspectives of solutions or action. It excels as a support group, but other than that it offers extremely limited perspectives. The need for any single perspective there to be pro-feminism gives them a big blind spot in the opposite direction of MensRights. One seems too focused on attacking feminism and the other one in defending feminism, and both forget to care about men.

nikdahl · 2019-07-25T19:58:28+00:00

I think they all serve different purposes, and are all misinterpreted by reddit.

/r/MensRights is a decent sub, and although most members are well meaning, it doesn't moderate out the blatant sexism and woman hating that can sometimes bubble up.

/r/MensLib allows no criticism or feminism, or of the sub/moderation. It's not a place for true conversation if I'm restricted from saying what I mean to say. To be effective, you need to be critical of your self. Plus, there are just as many women in this sub than men, and the women get upvoted all the time. It's Internalized Misandry, but at least it comes from a place of empathy and people there use full sentences and treat each other with respect when speaking (unless you go against the hive mind, or if they find out you've ever posted to any of these other subs)

/r/RedPill has some great lifestyle advice, and general ideas about how to approach relationship while respecting yourself. Unfortunately, it has a lot of bullshit in it as well, and is widely hated across reddit.

/r/MGTOW has it's own place, and I can certainly respect their perspective. They don't find the advantages of being in a relationship to overcome the disadvantages. They have a different value system, and that's just fine with me. They also have some great lifestyle advice for men. The part I don't like is the "AWALT".

/r/incels is mostly trash. I really empathize with these guys in a lot of ways. Women are the sexual selectors in society, and they aren't selecting these men for whatever reason. Men deserve and desire affection, closeness and physical touch just as much as anyone else, and you could argue that men have a debilitating biological desire to copulate, and lack of affection can be very damaging to a persons psyche. This is one of the reasons why I believe prostitution should be legal. Unfortunately, incels come off as super whiney and unwilling to make any changes to become more desirable. I would like a culture where men of all shapes and sizes are more desirable, especially since women of all shape and size are still desirable. It's an unfair system, and I empathize, but until society starts to empathize more with men, and understand our biological condition, I don't see incels being at all effective at enacting any meaningful change.

Menslib is closest to what I want to get out of a mens sub, because the rest of them are infected with conservative douchebags that want to make this a right vs left issue, and will target "libs" or "sjw" or "lefists" instead of feminism or misandry.

Kore624 · 2019-07-30T23:27:22+00:00

Post are 99% bashing feminism and 1% actual posts about men’s rights and advocacy for equality.

Title	What problems do you see in current mainstream MRM (and other male spaces)?
Author	kakerlaker
Upvotes	5
Comments	16
Date	July 23, 2019 11:04 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/cgzy63/what_problems_do_you_see_in_current_mainstream/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-problems-do-you-see-in-current-mainstream-mrm.1064641 https://theredarchive.com/post/1064641

Comments

Why is a specifically left-wing male issues subreddit needed?

Where do we reject the mainstream political spectrum?

How do we differ from right-wing anti-feminists?

How do we differ from feminist Men's Lib?