Advancement | MensRights

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[–]wolfeerine 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm not against the idea of using hashtags and movements but i don't think they're helpful or productive, why do we need separate hashtags instead of one hashtag for all victims/survivors?. To me movements don't really do much and tend to be "owned" by a societal group. Take the MeToo movement as prime example, the original creator intended it to be for men and women yet most people would affiliate it with women only because of the context in how it was first used and the continuation of how it's used in the media. Most outlets use the MeToo movement when referring to womens sexual abuse only. Even if you look up MeToo on wikipedia it is declared as a feminist social movement. By all rights the man in OP's picture could be using the MeToo movement hashtag if he wanted to and not have to start his own but just like everyone else, nobody knows or highlights that MeToo is for all abuse victims.

The other thing about backing movements online is that you never truly know the people behind them. Again look deeper at the MeToo movement in the news and you'll see the vast amount of "celebrity-ish" figureheads, advocates and speakers that are being sued for defamation or who are up for sexual abuse themselves. But this shit doesn't really see the light of day because it ruins the movement.

The last thing i'd say is that i think we can all agree that abuse isn't carried out by one gender. The fact the man in OP's picture feels the need to start his own movement is ridiculous to me. Encouraging victims to speak out should be a world wide encouragement and movement, and not be left to individual movements per gender or culture/society. To me all that the MeToo movement does is asserts the stupid notion that women can't be abusers.

Edit: i almost forgot about the recent revelations of Amber Heard lying about Johnny Depp abusing her and using the MeToo movement when it was actually Amber Herd abusing Johnny Depp.

[–]GrumpyGayGuy 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The problem with your argument is that you assume that all victims will be treated with fairness and respect. There are no well known examples of men who have shared their stories of abuse who have not be the target of disdain and ridicule. Any man who shares his story, whether it be past abuse or an egregious accusation of some sort, or even any instance where he was discriminated against is almost immediately met with a plethora of negative replies.

Women in general are just plain heartless. "Be a man". they say. "Just suck it up". Also when someone states the irrefutable fact that men are much more victimized than women, they tend to get extremely angry and start harassing men further. Why do men need their own movements? Because women don't want us anywhere near them and their own extremely sexist, racist, discriminatory movements. Why do men need their own movements? Because women don't want us included, and frankly i wouldn't want to be part of their movement. I would much rather be part of a movement that actually has real victims like myself, because we all know for a fact that MeToo doesn't.

[–]wolfeerine 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

very fair, and i take your point, men do need their own movement. sadly i guess what should be fair for everyone is always going to be a dream and not a reality. What i said wasn't supposed to be taken as an argument btw, i meant it more as a highlight at how unfair and hypocritical these feminist movements are. And i truly wish it wasn't so one sided in favor of women. i hate the one sidedness when it comes to people speaking out about the abuse they endure and I couldn't agree more with you saying women are just heartless. I listened to the Amber Heard audio yesterday and hearing her call Johnny Depp a baby, telling him to jerk his friend off when he spoke about his friend coming up to get him. Made me angry listening to that shit. Someone needs to tell Gillette to get onto their Venus division and make an advert for us men.

I didn't mean it to sound like i was belittling this mans movement or making it as though it was unimportant, i'd never do that. I guess what i was trying to say was that i wish for not needing any movements and that victims speaking out no matter who they are, were treated with the same level of respect and compassion. No one sidedness, just equality. And that's where the feminist groups and movements fail, they always want more, not equality.

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[–]Airalyne 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

You’re still generalizing and discrediting a whole movement because of the few, and I’m still sticking to a few. I don’t think we’re in a position to say what counts as “harassment” or not without being in their position. I don’t think the movement is “tainted”, it’s still a movement that gave plenty of people voice. Perhaps you think it’s a lot, but I find that plenty of people support men who came out, they’re are discrediters, but “a lot” and “plenty” is definitely subjective. There are also always a bunch of toxic and ignorant people, it doesn’t mean we should just discredit an outlet for people who have been sexually abused just because some people are assholes.

When you look at that plenty of men also discredit women who has been harassed or abused, it goes both ways and both sides have its faults. I think it’s really not the movement’s fault, and it’s still a good #, it’s just that there’s shitty people with shit personalities, rather than shitty people who are men or women.

[–]The_Best_01 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

I mean, from what I saw of it nearly half of them complained about relatively minor stuff so I'm really not sure it was just a few, and stuff that could've been troubling to one person may not be troubling to most people, so "harassment" is subjective too. And personally, I've seen more women discredit men than the opposite.

I won't deny that the movement has done good things for a lot of people, but it did reek of a victimhood mentality and quite rapidly turned into a witch-hunt for many others. It's like feminism itself, sure it's done some good things for women, and it claimed to be about "equality", but when you look at all the stuff it led to, was it really all worth it in the end? Was the stated goal merely a lie and temporary misdirection until the true goal was realized? Maybe it was always just rotten at its core?

I think the same principle applies to MeToo, I don't know if the good outweighs the bad. Ideally it would've been a movement where people of both sexes could share more actual cases of abuse or harassment, and fewer cases of inappropriate touching or spoken words from 30 years ago. But it is what it is. Hopefully, MenToo will be one of the good things that the original hashtag started.

[–]Airalyne 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I still think MeToo is a good movement. Also, what may not seem like harassment to you is to another, we do not decide what someone else feels about something. I usually don’t see anyone really discredit anyone, there is more good than bad in my opinion, so even if there is, they usually get drowned out. There are asshole still, but overall as a society we have made a move to being more sensitive about those matters, I wouldn’t disagree that I would expect more men to be discredited. It’s a matter of gender stereotypes and construct, perhaps in the far future it’ll be different.

Saying that it reeked of a victim mentality is something that can be applied to every movement, I see that here and I see it on feminism pages, should I say this sub is all just senseless as well. I do feel like there are times feminism does a lot of good, and times where it doesn’t do enough or too much. I don’t really think that the stated goal was a lie at all, I think it’s just there are those who twist the it to their preferences, and note the fact it happens here on this sub often as well.

The MeToo movement to me will always be a beautiful movement, it has its stains here and there, but celebrities, both male and female, giving some light to others is beautiful to me.

And regarding your comment on recent sexual abuse. I think it doesn’t matter, abuse is abuse, and it stains like oil. I was fucked from age six to about maybe twelve or thirteen, and it really hits now what had happened to me. I struggle to come to terms with it and move on. have to also force myself to not fall into a misandristic mindset about men because of it. I don’t think time heals all wounds, I suppose it differs from person to person, but so what it’s thirty years ago, time cannot change what has happened, it will always be there regardless of whether you want to look at it or not.

If MenToo becomes big and helps a lot of people that’ll be great, I hope those people can find some peace with what has happened in their pasts. I also hope when that time comes I hope you’ll support all of them, regardless if it happened thirty or a year ago.

[–]The_Best_01 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Also, what may not seem like harassment to you is to another, we do not decide what someone else feels about something.

That's the problem, anyone can say anything is abuse. I think there should be objective standards. That's why people only go to jail if it's something serious.

I wouldn’t disagree that I would expect more men to be discredited. It’s a matter of gender stereotypes and construct, perhaps in the far future it’ll be different.

Stereotypes, maybe. "Construct", no. Also the fact that people generally care more about women than men. And I hope it's a bit sooner than the far future.

Saying that it reeked of a victim mentality is something that can be applied to every movement, I see that here and I see it on feminism pages, should I say this sub is all just senseless as well.

Fair enough, but I see it a lot more with feminists. And it's not even justified.

I do feel like there are times feminism does a lot of good, and times where it doesn’t do enough or too much. I don’t really think that the stated goal was a lie at all, I think it’s just there are those who twist the it to their preferences.

Oh boy, I can see you haven't done enough research. This one is a brilliant piece for starters. Again, I ask you, do the roots of the movement seem honest to you? People twisting it to their preferences is nothing new. I don't think it really happens on this sub, apart from the small minority of sexists.

And regarding your comment on recent sexual abuse. I think it doesn’t matter, abuse is abuse, and it stains like oil. I was fucked from age six to about maybe twelve or thirteen, and it really hits now what had happened to me. I struggle to come to terms with it and move on. have to also force myself to not fall into a misandristic mindset about men because of it.

I'm sorry for what happened to you. You're definitely better than a lot of women who fall into this mindset. Incidentally, most of those women call themselves feminists.

I don’t think time heals all wounds, I suppose it differs from person to person, but so what it’s thirty years ago, time cannot change what has happened, it will always be there regardless of whether you want to look at it or not.

Again, I was talking about serious cases. I'm well aware that trauma stays with people for a long time. But I find it funny how some people only come out decades after the fact and at convenient times.

I also hope when that time comes I hope you’ll support all of them, regardless if it happened thirty or a year ago.

If it's actual abuse or harassment, then yes.

[–]Airalyne 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I’m not gonna read the reddit post because I’m sorry, I’m lazy. But if you say stated goal of feminism I would think equality between two genders. Ive came to realize that comes with a price that many from both sides are unwilling to give. It frustrates me to no ends, which is why I don’t really identify as a feminist. Regardless of roots or history, i don’t think the movement in itself is inherently wrong. History and the past is one big stain on everyone, and that goes for both genders. I care much more when people do stupid shit in the name of fighting sexism now.

I won’t lie, feminism ticks me off endlessly, but the same thing goes with menism? How ever you say it. But I can understand that good comes out from both. I’ve spend a lot of my life loathing being female, even now I get shit for being a woman and liking girly things. I know, unreal, and I won’t lie that sometimes those “female empowerment” posts helps me cope. I can imagine the same for men and this sub, and other women with feminism.

People come out convenient times and circumstances because there really wasn’t a way to come out, there was no push. I don’t reveal my past because I don’t wish to ruin my family, but I can tell you how much loathing I have when I see them succeed and live a good life as if nothing has happened. That’s why I can imagine people coming out at those “convenient” times.

I do also hope that men are being taken more seriously, hell, I wish everyone can be taken more seriously. I hope the day does come soon when we can all just respect each other regardless of gender, race or whatnot. I think regardless of who, we’re all just struggling to exist in a world that seems to made against us.

[–]The_Best_01 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I’m not gonna read the reddit post because I’m sorry, I’m lazy. But if you say stated goal of feminism I would think equality between two genders. Ive came to realize that comes with a price that many from both sides are unwilling to give.

At least skim it, it's quite interesting. And it goes into exactly why the goal was never "equality", regardless of what they said.

I won’t lie, feminism ticks me off endlessly, but the same thing goes with menism?

How do MRAs annoy you? Granted, there are sometimes way too many random social media posts and other silly stuff here. But the core of the movement (if you can call it that) is good, it's on the right side of history. I can't really say the same for feminism.

I can imagine the same for men and this sub, and other women with feminism.

The difference is men need the support a lot more. Society generally already treats women better, so I think there's too many needless "empowerment" stuff for women. But hey, whatever helps them deal with their imagined slights.

People come out convenient times and circumstances because there really wasn’t a way to come out, there was no push.

I don't mean telling everyone, rather just going to the cops. I don't know how many in the MeToo thing actually went to the cops. I'm sure it wouldn't ruin families even if it was revealed to others. If people avoid or suddenly turn against someone who's been abused, they don't sound like good people. Or hell, maybe most people just aren't good people anyway.

I do also hope that men are being taken more seriously, hell, I wish everyone can be taken more seriously. I hope the day does come soon when we can all just respect each other regardless of gender, race or whatnot. I think regardless of who, we’re all just struggling to exist in a world that seems to made against us.

Agreed. I also hope gender relations improve, otherwise I have no idea what the future will be like for us. The MRM is probably the only hope of any semblance of equality, if society continues on its current path.

[–]Airalyne1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It’s hard going to the cops for something that has happened in the past, at least in your cases of not coming out until years later. Like if I were to come out about my past incidents, I would have little to no backing, hence why there would be no reason for me to go to cops. Also, I was talking about my personal case when I was talking about ruining families.

MRAs sometimes tick me off because like feminism they generalize the entire gender into one box, granted it’s not all of them, but it is a lot. Each sides seems to always be shaming the opposite gender, being male or female doesn’t mean anything, being an asshole does. I can understand why it happens, it’s in me sometimes, a bad instinct whenever a man approaches me, but regardless of my empathy, I cannot respect it.

I’m assuming you didn’t want to disrespect me when you chose to ignore my comments about being treated badly. I don’t think feminism is unneeded, neither do I think that about the men’s right movement. There is plenty of sexism against both sides today, some places it’s more serious than the other, but it exists nonetheless.

I say this as a female who grew up wishing I was a boy so I could be treated as leniently and be as loved as my brother. Wishing that perhaps if I was a boy I would have been able to avoid all the trauma that has befallen on me. My case may have been my family being traditional and just terrible circumstances, but it still stands. Outside of my family I’ve been bombarded with woman jokes and ridiculed for liking pretty things. Been approached by people who wanted nothing more but to see my pictures. I doubt you and the men’s right movement would associate with those kind of people, but that does not change the fact that they still exist.

I don’t say this to say that your points are entirely wrong, but I don’t think that feminism is unnecessary, especially in places where women are treated like dirt. Sure there are people who take it out of proportions, but like I’ve said, I personally would not disregard an entire movement because of people who can’t act right, after all, they’re everywhere. I also don’t think it’s a contest of who needs it more and whose worse than the other, two people who has gotten shot will both need treatment, they shouldn’t be fighting each other to see who gets treated first.

[–]The_Best_011 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It’s hard going to the cops for something that has happened in the past, at least in your cases of not coming out until years later. Like if I were to come out about my past incidents, I would have little to no backing, hence why there would be no reason for me to go to cops. Also, I was talking about my personal case when I was talking about ruining families.

What's preventing people from going to the cops straight away? I'm aware abuse is underreported (abuse of men is even more underreported), but lots of people still do it. Instead they complain on social media many years after the fact. I hope you can see why it's hard to distinguish truth from lies sometimes and why it's important to take some things with a grain of salt.

MRAs sometimes tick me off because like feminism they generalize the entire gender into one box, granted it’s not all of them, but it is a lot. Each sides seems to always be shaming the opposite gender, being male or female doesn’t mean anything, being an asshole does.

And again, I've noticed it's far more prevalent among feminists. Granted, this could be a case of confirmation bias and seeing what we want to see. That goes for both of us.

I’m assuming you didn’t want to disrespect me when you chose to ignore my comments about being treated badly. I don’t think feminism is unneeded

I wasn't trying to ignore you, rather I was making the point that your experiences are probably a minority. I think feminism really is unneeded, at the very least it's gone totally insane.

I say this as a female who grew up wishing I was a boy so I could be treated as leniently and be as loved as my brother. Wishing that perhaps if I was a boy I would have been able to avoid all the trauma that has befallen on me. My case may have been my family being traditional and just terrible circumstances, but it still stands. Outside of my family I’ve been bombarded with woman jokes and ridiculed for liking pretty things. Been approached by people who wanted nothing more but to see my pictures. I doubt you and the men’s right movement would associate with those kind of people, but that does not change the fact that they still exist.

Again, I'm sorry you've dealt with shitty people, but I don't think these types of things are that common.

I don’t say this to say that your points are entirely wrong, but I don’t think that feminism is unnecessary, especially in places where women are treated like dirt.

This actually brings up a good point. I've seen lots of people say that feminism is only needed in third-world countries, but I disagree. If you only focus on the women, chances are it will end up just as bad as modern feminism in the west. That's one of the main obvious problems with feminism, if it was truly about equality, they would've focused on men's issues from the start just as much. Men are also treated like shit in the third-world, but people overlook that and focus on the fact that women have lower status and can't do everything men can do, just like what happened in the west. So yeah, that's that.

I also don’t think it’s a contest of who needs it more and whose worse than the other, two people who has gotten shot will both need treatment, they shouldn’t be fighting each other to see who gets treated first.

But if one's stabbed and one's merely cut, who should get more attention?

Anyway, we've been talking for quite a while, so I don't know if you want to keep going on. It's been interesting, but I'm not really a fan of long discussions, lol.

[–]Airalyne1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think these incidents are far more common than what you would expect, I’ve seen them around a lot, and I’ve been around a lot of places. Perhaps you don’t hang around the same shitty alleys I do, but alas they’re there, even if you don’t see them. And in terms of both things, can you really make a fair judgement until you’ve felt it.

I meant third world countries in the sense that there are places where women are shamed and whipped for not wearing the right clothes and raped for showing skin. I wouldn’t even call that equality, I would call that treating humans and human beings. Because of fear that men would end up badly, should we just ignore it all, let them suffer because we don’t want to?

There probably is bias there, but I do think that there is the same amount of bullshit in MRAs and feminists. Especially walking around these subs and hearing it endlessly, they seem more obvious and irritating.

People don’t go to the police because of many reasons, they don’t want to be judged and ostracized, they don’t want everyone to know, the persons someone they know and it’s hard to come out about it. Did you know that almost all rape victims knew their rapist? Did you know a good 1/3 are family members, just like in my case? I’ve talked to rape victims myself, talked to them as they consoled me while I consoled them, and I can guarantee you it’s more than “why don’t just go to the police in the first place?”.

And trust me, you’re not the first or last to ask that question. I’ve fought and argued with people who just pushed me to go to the police, but it really isn’t that simple. I don’t think you think it really is that simple either. The emotional strain and shock is something you can’t really understand until you’ve felt it.

You’re right, the conversation has gone for too long. I don’t really want to continue it anymore either, but I wanted to tell you that I think you’re unwilling to admit your sides faults. Rather then unwilling, I think you just don’t wish to see them. I think perhaps like me, you’ve been hurt in the past, but it’s not my right to know. But you’re like me, I can see your words and thoughts like a reflection of my past self. I know it’s hard, it’s always hard to see all the dirtiness in the world, but eventually you’ll have to face them. And I think they’re both cuts, and without treatment they’ll both get infected.

And with that I end this conversation, it was pleasant talking to you. Perhaps not all our points agreed, but it was a wonderful talk nonetheless. I won’t lie this sub does give me empathy for men, especially since I haven’t fully moved from my demonization of men. It’s a slow drawn out journey, and I’m not quite sure I’m gonna make it through. But if I die I’ll kill myself knowing that it’s wicked people that has pushed me there, not just men and whatnot. Anyways, enjoy the rest of your day, I hope all will be pleasant to you.

[–]The_Best_011 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think these incidents are far more common than what you would expect, I’ve seen them around a lot, and I’ve been around a lot of places. Perhaps you don’t hang around the same shitty alleys I do, but alas they’re there, even if you don’t see them. And in terms of both things, can you really make a fair judgement until you’ve felt it.

Fair enough. Maybe try to avoid hanging out in shit places though. But I don't know if you can judge if somewhere is shit or not straight away.

I meant third world countries in the sense that there are places where women are shamed and whipped for not wearing the right clothes and raped for showing skin. I wouldn’t even call that equality, I would call that treating humans and human beings. Because of fear that men would end up badly, should we just ignore it all, let them suffer because we don’t want to?

No, of course I never said ignore it. I said we should also focus on men just as much.

There probably is bias there, but I do think that there is the same amount of bullshit in MRAs and feminists. Especially walking around these subs and hearing it endlessly, they seem more obvious and irritating.

Maybe in MGTOW, but it doesn't seem like it here.

People don’t go to the police because of many reasons, they don’t want to be judged and ostracized, they don’t want everyone to know, the persons someone they know and it’s hard to come out about it. Did you know that almost all rape victims knew their rapist? Did you know a good 1/3 are family members, just like in my case? I’ve talked to rape victims myself, talked to them as they consoled me while I consoled them, and I can guarantee you it’s more than “why don’t just go to the police in the first place?”. And trust me, you’re not the first or last to ask that question. I’ve fought and argued with people who just pushed me to go to the police, but it really isn’t that simple. I don’t think you think it really is that simple either. The emotional strain and shock is something you can’t really understand until you’ve felt it.

Good point, I don't think someone could fully understand it unless they've gone through the same thing. But like I said, some people just come out at very convenient times. With MeToo, a few famous people were falsely accused just because it was trendy. Some of them are still hated by some people even after being proven innocent. So even if we forget all of ordinary people's accusations, some of the higher-profile cases that started the thing were bullshit. Hence why I don't think the movement was entirely in good faith.

You’re right, the conversation has gone for too long. I don’t really want to continue it anymore either, but I wanted to tell you that I think you’re unwilling to admit your sides faults. Rather then unwilling, I think you just don’t wish to see them.

I admit my points may be a bit flawed, but I'm just going by experience like you. Which again, is subjective.

I think perhaps like me, you’ve been hurt in the past, but it’s not my right to know.

I haven't been hurt anywhere near to the extent as you, but I've also had bad treatment like you, simply because of my sex. I also have to deal with an increasingly misandric society and media, which isn't a problem for most women. This has exacerbated my depression and isolation which I've struggled with for a long time.

But you’re like me, I can see your words and thoughts like a reflection of my past self. I know it’s hard, it’s always hard to see all the dirtiness in the world, but eventually you’ll have to face them. And I think they’re both cuts, and without treatment they’ll both get infected.

I don't know your past self, so I can't comment on that. But I still think one is a stab wound and the other is a cut.

And with that I end this conversation, it was pleasant talking to you. Perhaps not all our points agreed, but it was a wonderful talk nonetheless. I won’t lie this sub does give me empathy for men, especially since I haven’t fully moved from my demonization of men. It’s a slow drawn out journey, and I’m not quite sure I’m gonna make it through.

You can make it through, I know you can. I have plenty of reasons to dislike women too, yet I didn't let those thoughts overcome me. I'm sure it's much harder for you due to your experiences though.

Anyways, enjoy the rest of your day, I hope all will be pleasant to you.

Thanks, I hope so too and likewise. :)

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[–]Ihatemybodyok 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mustimustdie 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ScottishGamer1909 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rwp80 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thereslcjg2000 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]silhouette951 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ihatemybodyok 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]silhouette951 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]accidental_me 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GrumpyGayGuy 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]okwaitno -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gold_Range-15 points 6 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]DrinkV0dka 12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]BlackDChase 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SsoulBlade 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BlackDChase 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Advancement
Author	Ihatemybodyok
Upvotes	2126
Comments	79
Date	February 4, 2020 11:56 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/eyzshh/advancement/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/advancement.1200847 https://theredarchive.com/post/1200847

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