Engaging with Feminists

Grapeban · 2012-06-04T21:48:10+00:00

If you're talking to feminists, don't set yourself up as being anti-feminist. Set yourself up as being anti-the sexist institutions, cultures and expectations of our society, and you'll quickly find common ground I feel.

Curebores · 2012-06-04T21:26:37+00:00

I think you might have answered your own question. Don't take it like it is you vs the world. If the issue comes up or can be naturally steered that way then fine, but no one likes having things shoved down their throats - Especially if it jars with their world view.

Just be nice, don't bore people to death with it, don't force it upon them and try to be the voice of reason if a relevant topic starts to get steered towards a feminist propaganda tirade.

Little acorns grow into big trees and all that.

rightsbot · 2012-06-04T21:10:17+00:00

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wavegeek · 2012-06-04T22:46:04+00:00

You are trying to sell something. Specifically you are trying to sell ideas. So you need to learn how to sell.

A good place to start would be Tom Hopkins "Tom Hopkins Guide to Greatness in Sales: How to Become a Complete Salesperson".

Some examples:

People make decisions on an emotional basis. You need to find an emotional hook to get them interested in your ideas. Eg if you talk about false rape accusations, talk about it as something that could happen to their own child or brother.
The words you use are important. Eg frame yourself as someone concerned about equal opportunity rather than as a scary "Men's Rights Activist".
Get people used to agreeing with things eg initially talk about FGM and how bad it is (heads nodding) then generalize it to "I think that subjecting children to unnecessary painful surgery" (heads nodding) then you can talk about how painful and distressing circumcision of little boys is and that most medical associations believe it is not necessary.
Often it is more powerful to get people to draw their own (obvious) conclusion. As in 3 above, you don't say male circumcision is bad, you let them draw that conclusion.
Objection handling. Get a list of common objections to what you are saying and work up good responses - try things and see what works!

I would also recommend Hopkins' book "The Official Guide to Success".

MadeMeMeh · 2012-06-04T23:50:16+00:00

I try to keep is simple. Just enough to hook somebody to the concept.

Never attack or try to bring anybody down in the conversation. You want to keep it about how they can help men, not about how women have too much power or the balance between men and women is wrong.

Stick to topics that are easy to discuss and have broad appeal. I find some of the easiest are custody discrimination, equal rights for men with regards to family issues(specifically work related, things like time off for child birth/adoption and work/life balance), and lack of social support structures for men (I'll often use suicide rates for this).

Always make sure you have sources for any numbers you use.

You aren't going to win everybody over.

mikesteane · 2012-06-05T05:43:37+00:00

I prepared the following advice as a post for tomorrow, but since you are asking today, you can have it as a comment: How to Argue With a Feminist

Feminists can argue, almost within the same sentence that women are exactly equal to men and therefore should have all the same rights and that women are perpetual victims requiring special privileges in law, business, relationships and the home. Direct confrontation with an opinion so evidently based on wanting it to be true rather than the objective facts will serve only to compact it into a harder, more rigid dogma.

The key is to ask questions, and to keep asking questions to gather evidence in advance. Thus, in order to avoid the defences "not all women are like that" and "not all feminists are like that", it is necessary to have asked sufficient questions in advance to show unequivocally that your interlocutor is definitely "like that."

The child-like instinct when arguing is to dispute tooth-and-nail every last point. This results in an argument of the is/isn't type. It is far more effective simply to gather information before making any statements. If you can get an answer to questions like the following you are well on your way to a crushing victory:

Is it right that when a ship sinks, priority should be given to women over men to help them survive? (A positive answer to this will later undermine all arguments along the lines of "we demand equality because we are the same" or "feminism is about equality between the sexes.")
To gather further evidence along these lines, questions about whether stat rapes committed by women should be punished the same as those committed by men are likely to show that feminists, at least the one you are talking to, do not believe in equality (unless it suits them.) 3.. Should paternity fraud be a crime? A positive answer to this shows your interlocutor is a reasonable person and a change of tack to one of agreeable conversation is a good move. A negative answer should lead to more questions as to why a fraud which is so costly, in every sense of the word, to its victim, not to mention not being in the best interests of the child should be permitted with impunity. Keep asking the questions and gathering the evidence.
Should a boy who is statutorily raped have to pay maintenance?
Should a man have to pay maintenance on a child which he did not which to father and which he did not want? (just keep asking the questions)
Should a woman who plans the murder of her husband ever be able to claim that his abuse had led her to lose control and thus she was not responsible for her actions? What about an abused man who plans the murder of his wife? (If she says men don't get abused, don't get drawn into the argument, just state it as a hypothetical question) 7. Should night-clubs be allowed to sell the same drinks at different prices or charge different entry fees depending on the sex of the purchaser? (A positive answer to this one leads inevitably to the establishment of the fact that your interlocutor believes in gender roles.) Should men pay on dates? (same thing)

Just keep asking, asking and asking more. I will not list any more questions, but you should ask a lot more than the seven listed. You will see below, when I finally suggest lines of argument that weaknesses are apparent because some of the evidence is missing because the necessary questions were not asked in advance. The practice of doing nothing but asking questions and listening to the answers, in itself, is a useful discipline, training you to control your emotions (if you feel emotional about this sort of thing), ability to listen carefully and to organise arguments. The longer you do nothing but question, the longer you have to plan any statements you are going to make. Finally, when you have gathered enough information, it is still not necessary to make any statements. You can simply ask further questions:

"Given that you think (men should pay on dates, women should have priority in lifeboats, should be paid for on dates, should have the sole discretion in matters of reproduction etc.) why do you also argue that men and women are the same and that any pay gap must necessarily be the result of discrimination?"

"If men and women are the same (should have asked questions about affirmative action to balance numbers here and idea that depends on the candidates be equal except when discrimination comes into play) why is male on female stat rape deserving of more serious punishment than female on male stat rape?"

"If a woman can be held not responsible for her actions because of her domestic situation, while a man must be held accountable, how can the two sexes be deemed equal in matters of justice and politics?"

By only asking questions, you allow no opportunity to be attacked while opening up the other to all the ramifications of her statements. You might also, just possibly, lead her to see the inherent contradictions and bias in her thinking as she will have got there herself on the basis of her own answers. An onlooker is highly likely to see your point of view rather than hers.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-06-04T21:19:45+00:00

Be nice.

The problem is individual women want to talk about their personal problems not cure the world, which is not unreasonable, and men tend to want to pretend they have no problems, also no unreasonable.

HPeroit · 2012-06-04T22:31:26+00:00

People are focusing too much on what you say and how you say it. Dont get me wrong, these are very relevant. But, more importantly, I think, is how you introduce it...

I always bring it up through talking about rights for another group, women's rights, lgbt rights, minorities rights, etc. It is important to know relevant information for all of these as the egalitarians we like to be. Because supporting the men's rights side of egalitarianism is considered taboo I always find that I have to talk for around 30 minutes of a bunch of different rights groups in order for my words to be taken seriously. I start to say that all groups have different hurdles that are in there way and list off hurdles that all these groups have to face... and then I, almost accidentally, stumble upon men's rights. I usually still get a bit of a look of incredulity at first but as I get into it the person is usually listening by the end of it. It's the best way I found to do it. I don't like beating around the bush, but so far, this is the best way I have found to be taken seriously.

rapiertwit · 2012-06-05T14:33:20+00:00

Whatever you're talking about, be calm and collected.

Avoid inflammatory or exaggerated language. Example: don't say that child support is slavery. Slavery is slavery. Child support is a necessary system, with flaws that should be addressed.

applebow · 2012-06-04T23:01:11+00:00

I was wondering if some more experienced MRA's might have some tips for engaging feminists

Try to avoid anything that would vilify a them. Most MRA's have a tendency to consider feminism and misandry as the same thing, admittedly the overlap between these groups is high but it's no excuse to tar them all with the same brush.

The point here is to divide and conquer. Many feminists are actually gender egalitarians who don't know any better. If you attack them you are driving them into the camp of the misandrists.

If criticising feminism never say 'feminism is sexist', say things like 'the concept of patriarchy is sexist, and anyone who believes or promotes it is sexist'. Point out that plenty of feminists do not believe in patriarchy.

Go a step further and point out that many of the people who do believe if it are just sexists pretending to be feminist to gain a fig-leaf of respectability.

Stick to specific points when discussing sexism. Genital mutilation is a good one, male incarceration rates are another. Don't try and go into everything at once or a feminist will just become defensive and spend their time attacking you.

I've also found it useful to use the term androphobia rather than misandry.

Androphobia is a more accurate term for anti-male discrimination these days. Misandry simply copies the feminist terminology of misogyny which is not actually a real thing.

Remember the difference between a debate and engaging. A debate is an attempt to sway third parties listening to you, so poking holes in your opponents flawed arguments is a valid strategy. Engaging is an attempt to change someone's mind, arguing wont work here, try to introduce new facts into their world view instead.

2012-06-05T15:02:03+00:00

If you absolutely have to do it, use accurate facts and statistics. Don't use fallacies, even if they do. Stand your ground, period.

Good luck when you run into the brick wall of pseudo science ideology. Many of the seriously indoctrinated ones will fight tooth and nail not to have bricks taken out of it. They'll backpedal, use fallacy after fallacy, and always refer back to that ever unfalsifiable pillar of "the patriarchy." Then they'll change it to kyriarchy, and talk about benevolent sexism. If you're still hanging around and riposting the bullshit with facts, then they'll bolster with a good dose of ad homs, and finally shut down conversation with the old trusty "misogynist," "woman hater," or "you must be bad women/you can't get laid."

Epitome of pseudo science [some would say a religion.]

5F42DE47BC · 2012-06-05T06:33:18+00:00

I don't bother. They see me as a lower form of life the second they determine I'm male. I have better things to do.

Title	Engaging with Feminists
Author	bucketh3ad
Upvotes	4
Comments	15
Date	June 4, 2012 9:09 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ukuwx/engaging_with_feminists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/engaging-with-feminists.1020472 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020472

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