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False accusations imperil us all.

Rolaid-Tommassi

February 10, 2021

27 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	False accusations imperil us all.
Author	Rolaid-Tommassi
Upvotes	27
Comments	16
Date	February 10, 2021 10:01 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/lh55vu/false_accusations_imperil_us_all/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/false-accusations-imperil-us-all.834557 https://theredarchive.com/post/834557

Comments

[–]InfiniteDials 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Protektor35 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]InfiniteDials 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ody_ssey 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Responsibility140 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rolaid-Tommassi[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]InfiniteDials -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

We don’t have a gynocentric society. To say that is to ignore the number of ways in which men have been given priority for centuries. I’m not saying there aren’t biases against men, but I think the bias is split pretty equally along gender lines. It just affects them in different ways. The majority of feminists aren’t pushing anti-men sentiment either. That myth is mostly pushed by reactionaries to damage the movements reputation. I’m not gonna say I love the feminist movement, but I’ll defend it on this point. You can go to the r/AskFeminists and r/MensLib subreddits and ask them yourself. I guarantee you you’ll find a resounding hatred for anti-men sentiment.

Further more, often times men aren’t taken seriously even their perpetrator is a man. This is especially true when if the survivor and the perpetrator are of the same age. Even so, from what I’ve heard, sexual assault towards men is perpetrated by women about half the time.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

. https://m.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-oppose-making-rape-gender-neutral/articleshow/15049606.cms

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

https://www.endvawnow.org/en/articles/1677-gender-specific-language-in-domestic-violence-laws.html

https://m.thewire.in/article/law/a-gender-neutral-domestic-violence-law-harms-rather-than-protects-women/amp

Majority of feminists also includes national and international feminists organisations I guess. /s

UN women is probably the world's biggest feminist organisation. And apart from the above link, it promotes male infant circumcision. (MGM)...

I agree that 'gynocentric society' is an overstatement. But so is the statement 'men were being given priority for centuries'..

Men weren't being given priority when the Titanic was sinking.
Men weren't being given priority when 14 year old boys were drafted for WW-1. Men were not being given priority when 8 year old boys were forced to work in coal mines in 18-19th century.
Men weren't given priority when male slaves were treated worse than female slaves...

Perception is everything. Your statement of 'men were given for centuries' is as wrong as my statement of gynocentric society.

Moreover, I wasn't born centuries ago. Men of today's generation aren't responsible for historical crimes. But gynocentrism is happening HERE abd NOW. We need to correct it, before men 200 years later start blaming 'women' for 'historical crimes'.

[–]InfiniteDials -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I’d still say women had the short end of the stick in the early days. They were given no means of power or influence, they weren’t allowed to vote, they were relegated to the home, they had a dangerous lack of representation in medical studies, they had far fewer recourses when it came to financial independence, and they had very little bodily autonomy (there was a time when husbands were legally allowed to rape their wives). Heck if you wanna go back further, they were essentially treated like slaves no matter their skin color.

None of what I’m saying is meant to diminish the struggles that men have faced. To do so would be a detriment to myself, but to say that women and men had it equally bad throughout history isn’t correct.

Now, to your other point about the here and now, I would never think to condemn men for crimes of the past. I also agree that there are... some gynocentric tendencies perpetuated by feminist communities and that they should also be addressed. With that being said, though, false accusations is not the greatest threat to men right now. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be addressed, but there are far more pressing issues to be dealt with in my opinion.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I’d still say women had the short end of the stick in the early days.

Men have a shorter end of the stick today.

They were given no means of power or influence, they weren’t allowed to vote,

Men are the minority of voters today. Moreover, men have to earn their vote by signing up for conscription. Women get for free.

they were relegated to the home,

Because jobs were manual labour and dangerous back then. I gave the example of coal mining. Women were banned from working in mines because it was dangerous.
Even today, 99% of workers in these kinda of jobs are still men.

Women are only fighting for cozy air conditioned jons. (STEM).. not for the kind of jobs which were available over a century ago.

they had a dangerous lack of representation in medical studies,

Because medical studies were often conducted in dangerous conditions. Boys and men were literally used as lab rats. Women were less represented because women were less likely to be willing to be lab rat. (And still are)

they had far fewer recourses when it came to financial independence, and they had very little bodily autonomy (there was a time when husbands were legally allowed to rape their wives).

This I agree. But abortions weren't safe till 1960s-70s. And pill was invented in 70s. So, its not black and white as you said, anyways.

Heck if you wanna go back further, they were essentially treated like slaves no matter their skin color.

There were women emprerors throughout history. Top 5% men and women enjoyed all the privileges. Bottom 95% men and women were all oppressed to a certain degree.

Calling it as if all men enjoyed the privileges, and all women were oppressed is a false dichotomy.
Yes. I agree, Women had it worse than men, but in today's society, men have it equally worse than women.

So, if your statement about past that 'women had is much worse than men' is true, I am using the same metric to call today's society 'gynocentric'.

Its not. Its an overstatement. But so is your statement.

Problem is not whether society is gynocentric or not. The biggest issue is women do have district advantages than men today, yet still, they ate given more rights and men's rights are being undermined. That's how I define a 'gynocentric society'.

As I said, I don't want a time in future, where men will be blaming women for 'historical oppression'. Possibly, that time may never even come.

As men walk away from an increasingly hostile society... I bet, the society won't even last long enough for that time to come.

[–]InfiniteDials 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

“Men have a shorter end of the stick today.”

That’s debatable.
That had nothing to do with what I said.

“Men are the minority of voters today. Moreover, men have to earn their vote by signing up for conscription. Women get for free.”

I’m not gonna deny this point, but I’d rather have the vote than not. Also why are you comparing today with the past? My point was that women had it worse in the past. Thy didn’t have the vote AT ALL.

“Because jobs were manual labour and dangerous back then. I gave the example of coal mining. Women were banned from working in mines because it was dangerous. Even today, 99% of workers in these kinda of jobs are still men.”

“Women are only fighting for cozy air conditioned jons. (STEM).. not for the kind of jobs which were available over a century ago.”

Not gonna deny this point, but it’s not the whole story. You know as well as I do that religion had a big role in the way women were, and still kinda are, socialized to be stay at home mothers. Like you kind of implied, this didn’t just apply to dangerous manual labor. Women were bared from opening businesses, having certain high level jobs, and owning credit cards. It was a lot more than just “keeping them safe”. Even women who did work in dangerous jobs weren’t given good conditions. In fact the reason women were payed less than men is because it was assumed they’d leave the job to become a stay at home mom.

“Because medical studies were often conducted in dangerous conditions. Boys and men were literally used as lab rats. Women were less represented because women were less likely to be willing to be lab rat. (And still are)”

Again this isn’t just about “keeping women safe”. It also has to do with men being seen as the default and essentially treating women as smaller men. I can also guarantee you that women were not protected from these lab rat experiments.
This idea didn’t just apply to live test subjects. The best example of this can be found in test dummies. For the longest time test dummies were only designed off of men and only accounted for their body structure. This precisely why women are far more likely to die in car crashes than men even when you account for variables.

“This I agree. But abortions weren't safe till 1960s-70s. And pill was invented in 70s. So, its not black and white as you said, anyways.”

I guess you agree since women are still fighting for their right to have abortions to this day. I can also guarantee you that if abortion was safe back in the 60s, women would have zero access to them.

There were women emprerors throughout history. Top 5% men and women enjoyed all the privileges. Bottom 95% men and women were all oppressed to a certain degree.

I was specifically about western civilization, so the emperor point doesn’t really matter. Even with that though, the vast majority of leaders throughout history were men. This is like saying that because Barack Obama was president that black people have had just as many privileges as white people.
Yes. Class is by far the biggest deciding factor in privilege than any other. I can agree to that.

“Calling it as if all men enjoyed the privileges, and all women were oppressed is a false dichotomy.

“Yes. I agree, Women had it worse than men, but in today's society, men have it equally worse than women.”

What was your point in trying to refute the things I listed above if you already agreed with me anyway? Do you want to talk about the past or do you want to talk about the present?

“So, if your statement about past that 'women had is much worse than men' is true, I am using the same metric to call today's society 'gynocentric'.”

“Its not. Its an overstatement. But so is your statement.”

Did you not just agree with me that women had it worse in the past? What metric are you using to judge my statement as an overestimate? Is there seriously that much of a difference for you between me saying women had it worse and me saying women had it (much) worse? I guess it doesn’t matter since I already refuted the vast majority of your previous statements anyway, so my point still stands.

“Problem is not whether society is gynocentric or not. The biggest issue is women do have district advantages than men today, yet still, they ate given more rights and men's rights are being undermined. That's how I define a 'gynocentric society'.”

Both men and women have disadvantages over one another. For every maternity fraud there’s an illegal abortion. For every false accusation there are a dozen more actual assaults against women and men. Why does it have to be a competition?

Also part of the reason the MRM is being ignored is because of the rampant misogyny and ties to white supremacy you find in its members. That’s partially why the MLM has gained popularity as of late. There’s a lot more openness to things.

“As I said, I don't want a time in future, where men will be blaming women for 'historical oppression'. Possibly, that time may never even come.”

“As men walk away from an increasingly hostile society... I bet, the society won't even last long enough for that time to come.”

Don’t give me that doomed nonsense. Men aren’t walking away from society. If anything more men are coming to the understanding that we don’t have to conform with traditional, toxic ideals of masculinity that are enforced upon them. We’re understanding more and more that masculinity is what we define it as.

I understand your fears about all of this and I get what you’re trying to do, but try not to diminish other people’s struggles in the pursuit of equality.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I guess you agree since women are still fighting for their right to have abortions to this day. I can also guarantee you that if abortion was safe back in the 60s, women would have zero access to them.

They became legal as soon as the technology became safe enough. There are very few counties where its still illegal, I ll come back to that point...

Both men and women have disadvantages over one another. For every maternity fraud there’s an illegal abortion. For every false accusation there are a dozen more actual assaults against women and men. Why does it have to be a competition?

Illegal abortion is illegal, and a criminal offence. Paternity fraud (i guess you meant this) is absolutely legal.
Actual rapes are illegal. A criminal offense. false accusations are not.
Moreover, the definition of rape isn't gender neutral in over 50% of countries. (Including countries like USA, UK, India, Brazil, Spain, middle east)

Also part of the reason the MRM is being ignored is because of the rampant misogyny and ties to white supremacy you find in its members. That’s partially why the MLM has gained popularity as of late. There’s a lot more openness to things.

There is rampant misandry within feminism as well. I didn't find you speaking a single word against that. Why these double standards apply to men ONLY? I can say same thing about feminism as female supremacy movement....

. You know as well as I do that religion had a big role in the way women were, and still kinda are, socialized to be stay at home mothers.

Religion also makes boys and men socialize to be providers and protectors. That men should always ask girl out and pay for dates.
Religious and social pressures on men is one the main reasons for high suicide rates among men. (NOT TOXIC MASCULINITY as feminists claim)...
I won't defend religion here. I consider myself agnostic.. Least concerned with religion.

TO CONCLUDE:..

I fully agree with you that men and women have unique set of disadvantages in modern society.

My point is this was the story in history too. Its not that all men had some superpowers over women. The situation you see today, wasn't too different from what happened in history..

The average man in past was certainly in an advantageous position than an average woman. If this your defence to set up misandrist and gender biased laws in present times, so as to punish (present generation of) men for crimes of their great great grandfathers... Then sorry I don't agree with you.

I gave you clear examples of laws which are biased against men. And examples of feminists organisations lobbying to keep them so. MRAs are far better than feminists, as in we are only asking for gender neutral laws. And laws against crimes (like false accusations, paternity fraud)

[–]InfiniteDials 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Alright. This is the last thing I’m gonna say and that’ll be it.

Religion is far more damaging to women than men. It treats women like second class citizens and indoctrinates them to be subservient to men. Don’t even try to compare the two situations.
The misogyny in the MRM is a very particular problem to that movement. The men’s liberation movement doesn’t have that problem. They frequently talk about men’s issues without diminishing women’s issues (which is something the MRM tends to do). Feminists and men’s lib are actually able to work in tandem with each other to address the issues of both genders (including the ones you mentioned). The MRM, on the other hand, only seems to fight with feminists and demonize them to hell and back.
Feminism isn’t perfect. I’ll admit it can feel a bit gynocentric at times, but it’s not a bad movement. I guarantee you the vast, vast majority of feminists advocate equal rights for everyone. A lot of the misunderstanding stems from reactionaries attempting to diminish the movements reputation. It also stems from the arbitrary division between men and women in discussions of gender which you perpetuate by pinning MRAs and feminists against each other.
Toxic masculinity is not a bad concept. The term itself is pretty problematic because it insinuates that only men are capable of reinforcing toxic ideals about gender. I personally hate the term, but it’s intended to liberate men from those gender norms that keep men miserable.
Stop making it a competition. I know you claim to not being doing so, but you are. Every time I try to explain the problems women face you come back at me with “wHaT aBoUt MeN”. With that pattern I can only conclude your intention is to undermine the struggles women go through on a daily basis. That’s not cool. I know men have issues. I know because I AM ONE. I know what it’s like to feel undervalued, unappreciated, under threat, and emotionally restricted, but I don’t use that as an excuse to downplay other people’s problems.

No more. I’m sick of people constantly vilifying the other side because of a bunch of words. I mean this about all movements, but especially the MRM. Feminists, MRAs, men’s lib, who fucking cares. You people will never get what you want unless learn to hold yourselves accountable and work together. Otherwise you’ll spent all of your time fighting, bitching, and moaning until the day you die.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I already told my views on religion. It has nothing to do with me supporting MRAs anyways. Lots of mens issues (eg MGM) are caused by religion.
There is misandry within feminism too. Which you failed to address in your comment. Before pointing out to problems with MRM, feminism gas the responsibility to clean up its own house.
If they can't get rid of toxicity within itself.. Its none of their business to call out others.
Feminism is perfect, when you look at it without the prejudice, that you have. Its a women's rights movement. Its never fought and will never fight for men's rights.
When you see it as a women's rights movement, you can understand and justify all its actions. Including their advocacy for gender biased laws. And undermining men's rights for Due processes.

Feminism has been engaging in this gaslighting and indoctrination for century (that's its a gender equality movement). You seem to have fallen for that trap too.

Toxic masculinity is a misandrist concept. Any person who disagrees is misandrist and bigot. Who engages in blatant victim blaming. People are toxic, both men and women. If you really want to justify toxic masculinity here, you dont belong to men's rights movement. Not even mens liberation. So, stop teaching men how to fight for their rights, when you have no real intention to do so, in the first place.

(Dont think being a male gives you right to call it justified. There is something called as internalize misandry--- a gender flipped term which feminists use to undermines voice of some women. )

If you think you have toxic masculinity.. Get rid of it.. Your toxic personality isn't a proof that other men's personality is toxic. And you have no right to dictate other people how to behave. That's what religious leaders did for centuries. Telling people how to behave.

Surprisingly, feminism is doing it to men today. Its a striking parallel to religion. (That you hate so much). As I said, consider me an atheist.

I didn't make it a competition. Feminists made it so. I gave you FOUR EXAMPLES of how feminists lobbied for gender biased laws. MRM has to get head on with feminism, because they undermine our efforts for legal reforms..

I guess you fail to notice here that a unified gender equality movement us impossible at this stage... Mens lib is good. But they dont raise nearly 70% of men's issues. Especially the ones that put you in direct confrontation with feminism movement.. (False accusations, gender biased rape and marital laws, blatant vilification of boys and men in our society).

You cannot call it a men's rights movement when it doesn't event address half of mens issues in the first place. Plus they endorse the concept of toxic masculinity. Which is blatant bigotry.

No more. I’m sick of people constantly vilifying the other side because of a bunch of words. I mean this about all movements, but especially the MRM. Feminists, MRAs, men’s lib, who fucking cares. You people will never get what you want unless learn to hold yourselves accountable and work together. Otherwise you’ll spent all of your time fighting, bitching, and moaning until the day you die.

Exactly.... You will be surprised to know, that men can avoid all this by simply not marrying and having LTRs.. Keep dating precise and short term..

No risk of divorce, no alimony, no child support, very little risk of false accusations.

It isn't rocket science to figure out this. As technology evolves, a lot of real life dating will be replaced with virtual dating anyways..

Smartphones did it to dating already ...in less than a decade.

As you said, religion is harming both genders...so is marriage--an invention by religion. As religion goes obsolete. Marriage will go obsolete too.

Men dont have to walk away and live in wilderness. They just have to figure this out. And hopefully, we will meet 200 years later to see how society looks. See ya then...

[–]iloveyoubutyou -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link