FGM & MGM

Dunkolunko · 2020-07-20T08:01:45+00:00

We need to stop using the 20,000 nerve endings argument. It's a phantom fact and there doesn't seem to be any reliable data on the number of nerve endings in the foreskin. I'm as vehemontly against MGM as anyone but we need to make sure we are using reliable info.

problem_redditor · 2020-07-20T09:31:06+00:00

Hey, don't I know you from Twitter?

And yes, the "MGM is NOT comparable to FGM" argument is tiring. People who come to this conclusion almost always are comparing the most severe forms of FGM (such as infibulation) to circumcision. It's very faulty reasoning to compare a rare and severe form of FGM to the standard form of MGM and pretend that proves the former is "worse". Both male and female genital mutilation fall on a wide spectrum, and the harms they may entail substantially overlap.

Much worse forms of MGM exist. As an extreme example of how bad MGM can get, forced castration and penis removal are still around. This form of MGM has been around for centuries. While it used to be far more prevalent in the past, it still seems to occur with disturbing frequency in some less developed countries and occurs in a diverse range of contexts. Here are some sources detailing the practice in the modern day.

A lot of times, it is done in the context of sex slavery of boys.

"An article in the Gulf Times revealed in 2005 a major sex trade in mostly Nepalese boys who were lured to India and sold to brothels in Mumbai, Hyderabad, New Delhi, Lucknow and Gorakhpur. One victim was lured from Nepal at the age of 14, sold into slavery, locked up, beaten, starved, and forcibly castrated. He reported that he was held in a brothel with 40 to 50 other boys, many of whom were also castrated. He escaped and made his way back to Nepal. Two non-governmental organizations, one that works with homosexuals in Nepal, and one that works to rescue and rehabilitate trafficked women and children, were co-operating to help and rescue these boys."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration

It is practiced among the hijras of India, a lot of whom have been forced to join the community by abduction and castration.

Khairati Lai Bhola of All India Hijra Kalyan Sabha (AIHKS), formed in 1984 to protect the rights of the community, says most eunuchs in the country are not transvestites or hermaphrodites. They are actually castrated men. “Young and addicted boys are abducted and then introduced to homosexuality by the agents of eunuch’s gurus. Castrations are clandestinely forced on them and ironically, very few people gather the courage to retaliate,” Bhola said.

“The hijra mafia that controls the castrations operates secretly throughout the country. They have a network of hijra mandis where a newly castrated eunuch is auctioned to the highest bidder. The auction is conducted with claps - a single clap means Rs 1,000. Fair, clean-limbed boys who can earn more, attract highest bids. Victims are threatened with death if they break silence,” reveals Bhola.

"Not less than a thousand young men ... are forcibly castrated every year. Many of them are married and have families."

https://www.indiatimes.com/news/lgbtq-the-truth-about-how-hijras-are-made-in-india-because-they-re-not-always-born-that-way-257525.html

A lot of forced castration and penis removal also happens in war. The practice dates back to ancient times with ancient Persian murals showing "triumphant warriors marching along bearing plates piled high with their enemy's penises". It undoubtedly is very common in modern conflicts as well, with the UN noting that "Castration and sterilisation ... ha[s] been reported across a number of conflicts, including the current war in Syria."

"The forms of SVM in Syria described by refugees, mental health professionals, health providers, and case managers aligned with the testimonies recorded by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry and other investigative bodies. Reported forms of SVM included ... injury to and mutilation of the penis and testes, and castration (resulting in death). One person reported the shooting of male detainees’ genitals at point blank range. The Independent International Commission of Inquiry has documented cases of snipers targeting men’s groin area."

https://data2.unhcr.org/es/documents/download/60864

This article notes that there are a large number of castrations which take place in armed conflict and lots of violence aimed at male reproductive organs. It is done for the purpose of making sure the victims lose their reproductive capacity. Indeed, perpetrators themselves, at times, will explicitly express these intentions, stating in the course of deliberately aiming beatings at testicles that, "you’ll never make Muslim children again".

https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/18/2/253/361968

In the Darfur genocide in Western Sudan (also called the first genocide of the 21st century, which began in 2003) there have been many reports of genital harm on men, specifically castration and penis removal. Genital targeting was neither exceptional nor localized, and it frequently preceded death. For instance, a Masaleit woman described how five men bled to death following castration. Another woman recounted speaking with a man who had his “genitals cut off”. Others reported how sexual organs were severed during dismemberment.

Perpetrators often excised victims’ penises and inserted them into the victims’ mouths. A Fur woman reported, “I saw a young boy and his father dismembered while still alive. They cut off their penises and put them in their mouths”. Another woman recalled how she observed the torture of seven men who were dismembered alive. Perpetrators pulled their teeth out, cut off their tongues, severed their penises, and then put them in their mouths.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/597fe5223e00be8e7b406ac1/t/5c4dd51b0ebbe8fdff88472f/1548604701556/Nyseth+Brehm_Gender+%26+Society.pdf

In the ongoing Rohingya conflict in Myanmar, Rohingya men and boys experienced a lot of conflict-related sexual violence, and genital mutilation was one of the most commonly experienced forms of sexual violence among men and boys. "The 2018 U.S. State Department survey of 1,024 Rohingya refugees found that 10% reported witnessing mutilation during the recent “clearance operations,” which included burning of the genitals."

"Genital violence was the second-most common form of sexual violence against men and boys, as reported by refugees for this WRC study. Human rights experts interviewed for this research also reported documenting cases of genital violence, in particular burning genitals, against Rohingya men and boys. A health provider in Cox’s Bazar District reported receiving cases of Rohingya men with genital trauma."

“Hakim,” a Rohingya man from Maungdaw township, reported an attack by local non-Rohingya villagers: "When I was fishing, two Buddhist villagers came to my neighbor’s house and they took the man and tortured and cut his private parts. His was later brought back to the village. I saw that he was bleeding heavily from the crotch and he soon died."

One refugee reported: "In Razar Bil village—one mile from my village—there were many people killed. Most of the men [killed] didn’t have a penis. I have seen this with my own eyes. Many boys and young men were killed, and most of them had no penis. I saw their bodies."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328842313_It's_Happening_to_Our_Men_as_Well_Sexual_Violence_Against_Rohingya_Men_and_Boys

This form of MGM is much worse than many of the forms of FGM, none of the major forms of which completely remove reproductive ability. In many of the contexts in which it is performed (especially in conflict situations) death follows very often after.

Maito_Guy · 2020-07-20T12:51:15+00:00

I (British) once dated an American girl who dumped me when she found out I'm not circumcised, and I refused to be circumcised for her.

She was genuinely disgusted by the thought of having sex with a man who has a foreskin.

(the conversation came up, because she said if we married and had children, the boys would have to be circumcised).

My foreskin stayed, she left.

(N.B She was not Jewish, but a Baptist Christian.)

nerfblab · 2020-07-20T21:11:36+00:00

One thing to think about is that there are something like 1billion men on the planet that are circumcised, and something like 100million women who have FGM.

Is each individual case of FGM worse than 10MGM?

FGM and MGM have all different levels. Perhaps 30% of FGM cases are the `worst' kind. In exactly the same way, MGM has different levels and includes full castration, penis bisection, removal of the glands, all the way down to what we call `circumcision'. These procedures can be done with pieces of glass, rocks, and metal, or in the sanitary setting of a hospital with pain medication. There are still boys today that are being castrated and sold into sex slavery (I can't be bothered looking for a citation here - this example will have to do: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-10-29-8603210378-story.html ). We have recordings of the last castrato signing it was that recent in Italy.

The trouble is that we always `imagine' the best possible case for MGM, and the worst possible case for FGM, and we use that to `allow' MGM, while banning all forms of FGM (including a pin pick or ceremonial blood letting). MGM and FGM are both fucked up procedures that should be resigned to the trash bin of history. The real difference is that our society has a level of empathy for girls that it does not have for boys.

Lethn · 2020-07-20T08:13:02+00:00

Then why do you care so much? Why is it when every time MRAs bring up circumcision in response to FGM there are literal swathes of idiots coming in here to brigade instead of just accepting that circumcision is an issue for people and not being a cunt about it? Stop getting triggered over people correcting misinformation and propaganda.

Reddit really has become a shithole and a safe haven for sociopaths even by my standards. If you can't take people discussing FGM and MGM in the same sentence that's your fucking problem. Oh and yes, this is all about that, you're all claiming that your not bothered about MRAs discussing the topics yet here you are brigading.

Every fucking time I see posts like this of people whining about a topic being discussed it's like clockwork that it will inevitably be some idiot from outside the sub who barely contributes, I'm fed up of it. MRAs and people who care about men's issues are not your personal punching back to attack because they bring up topics that make you uncomfortable.

If it's not a big problem for you, then fuck off, don't be a hypocrite about it.

I am not saying removing the foreskin is worse than removing the clitoris but I am not saying it isn't either. It certainly isn't self evident one is worse than the other.

I find it irritating that many MRA's seem to think FGM is far worse. It is impossible to make a direct comparison because the physiology and sexual responses of male and female genitals are totally different

You know what pisses me off? The blatant inconsistency of people who screech about FGM.

Edit: And circumcision as well, should correct myself.

Svenskbtch · 2020-07-20T12:41:39+00:00

As I understand it, that only holds if you compare male circumcision in a clinical environment with the most egregious forms of female circumcision in a non-clinical environment (the latter, fortunately, being exceedingly rare nowadays - most FGM is now symbolic).

At any rate, the point should not be to harp about what is worse. The point is extending the rights to bodily autonomy that we have acquired for women to men. I fail to see how combatting MGM would not be the natural logical progression here...

Title	FGM & MGM
Author	Maito_Guy
Upvotes	43
Comments	32
Date	July 20, 2020 7:20 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hugzoo/fgm_mgm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/fgm-mgm.847415 https://theredarchive.com/post/847415

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