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Hofstra students minimize false rape claim

PierceHarlan

September 18, 2009

27 upvotes

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http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2009/09/hofstra-students-minimize-false-rape.html

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Post Information

Title	Hofstra students minimize false rape claim
Author	PierceHarlan
Upvotes	27
Comments	28
Date	September 18, 2009 12:53 AM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9locc/hofstra_students_minimize_false_rape_claim/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/hofstra-students-minimize-false-rape-claim.1052825 https://theredarchive.com/post/1052825

Comments

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rongonathon2 points 16 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]fubuvsfitch -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]hatekillpuke -11 points-10 points-9 points 16 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

The author make a very big deal of the 22 hours these men spent in jail. When accused of a serious crime, shouldn't the suspects go to jail? We don't generally let accused murders walk around freely, do we? Yes, it is certainly shitty that they were held when it turned out that they had committed no crime, but isn't it better to err on the side of caution?

As to whether or not the woman should be charged with a crime, I think definitely so. She should be similarly penalized as she would for lying about any other crime of the same degree.

I think that a big reason why there is oftentimes no punishment for false accusations of sexual assault is because no one wants to make it in any way harder for actual victims to report actual criminals. The last thing a woman who has been raped needs is a fear that not only will she not be believed, but that she may indeed be punished for reporting the crime. Perhaps to ameliorate this fear, Laws to punish false accusers should be only take effect in clear cut cases of false accusal, and not in cases where the man is ultimately found not guilty, but it's a grey area he said/she said case?

As for students minimizing the false rape claim, please. Ask most students on the street on a college campus any question and you're bound to get a bunch of wishy-washy answers.

[–]MarcoVincenzo 6 points7 points8 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]hatekillpuke -3 points-2 points-1 points 16 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Veldang 6 points7 points8 points 16 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

"err on the side of caution?" Are you high? I'm sorry, i don't mean to attack you but erring on the side of caution is the same as saying "guilty until proven innocent" (to ease the transition put "We can't be sure so lock him up unless we can figure out otherwise" in the middle of your statements)

You make a valid point about only charging false accusers that are obviously false. Even when you say adding those charges would stop a woman like this from having told the truth. However her word shouldn't have been enough to put these boys in a position where only her word can save them, "off with his head" comes to mind.

They may only spend 22 hours in that jail cell, but they'll spend the rest of their lives trying to justify it to anyone with an internet connection!

The world is full of idiots and enough of them think that either, there wouldn't be a lie if it didn't really happen (she just recanted for different reasons) or just being convicted somehow makes that person more likely to commit that crime in future. Sound stupid? It is; but it doesn't mean it is not happening.

[–]hatekillpuke -4 points-3 points-2 points 16 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 5 points6 points7 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]hatekillpuke -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Veldang 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]hatekillpuke -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Veldang 3 points4 points5 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]hatekillpuke -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gareth321 5 points6 points7 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 6 points7 points8 points 16 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Siigh. Where to begin?

You would do well to spend several days reviewing the true life cases and other materials at my website, False Rape Society. Your post is imbued with the indiffierence to the plight of the falsely accused that has become a hallmark of radical gender feminism.

Your suggestion that it should be difficult to convict women of false rape allegations because to punish false accusers will make it harder for "actual victims" is vapid in more ways than I have time to enumerate. First, since when do we fight serious criminality in one area by refusing to punish serious criminality in another area? Since when do we tell one class of victims that their victimization is less deserving of our protection than another? Oh, I know -- when the vicitms are dreaded males. For your information, men and boys falsely accused of rape are "true victims," every bit as much as actual rape victims. For you to suggest otherwise bespeaks a gynocentrism that is morally grotesque.

The fact is, persons falsely accused of rape are treated as little more than collateral damage, flotsam, in what many misinformed souls -- you included -- regard as the "more important" war on rape. This, despite the grievous harm often suffered by falsely accused men and boys. Men and boys falsely accused of rape have been beaten, spat upon, chased, killed, and they have killed themselves. They have lost their wives, girlfriends, jobs and businesses. Very few come out of it unscathed, and most are scarred for life. Your indifference to their pain is most telling, and, sadly, typical of the feminist movement. As Vassar VP Catherine Comins once said about the falsely accused: “They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them.”

It is well to note that every serious, unbiased study on false rape claims shows that they are a significant problem, and objectively verifiable data indicates that close to half of all rape claims are false.

You also say this: "We don't generally let accused murders walk around freely, do we?" We never arrest accused murderers where there is a naked allegation of murder and an equally plausible denial by the suspect, with nothing more. In “he said/she said” disputes over acquaintance rape claims where there are competing claims of criminality (she accuses him of rape, he accuses her of making a false rape claim), why is he automatically arrested, with bail often set absurdly high, while she is wrapped in the garb of victimhood? This has the effect of giving an entire class of citizens (young women) the power to deprive another class (young men) of their liberty and destroy their lives on even false claims.

Of course, this arrangement is just fine with people like you.

[–]hatekillpuke -4 points-3 points-2 points 16 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Your post is imbued with the indiffierence to the plight of the falsely accused

Hey now, if I weren't interested in these sorts of issues, why would I even be discussing the article? Don't get in so deep that you dismiss arguments out of hand. In fact, you've clearly taken the time to thoughtfully engage in discussion and make a lot of good points here, and all of it would read more eloquently and more convincingly without this sort of judgmental tone.

For your information, men and boys falsely accused of rape are "true victims," every bit as much as actual rape victims.

I have a tough time swallowing that pill. I am not saying that it is terrible and potentially life destroying to be falsely accused of rape, because I believe it can be. I do not think, however, that a false accusal has the power to scar in the same way that the physical violence of rape does. We will probably have to agree to disagree on this point.

many misinformed souls -- you included -- regard as the "more important" war on rape.

Again, this isn't a particularly respectful way to talk with someone who is interested in learning more about your cause. I am interested in learning more about Mens Rights issues, but a lot of MRAs make it an uphill battle.

grievous harm often suffered by falsely accused men and boys

I don't dispute this one bit! I think the consequences of a false rape accusal are a lot harder for some people to grasp, as they are not nearly as immediate and visceral violence of being raped. You're right in saying that a lot of people assume "ho hum, his name was cleared, happy ending!" Making people more aware of these consequences as you're doing is, in my mind, a noble cause.

verifiable data indicates that close to half of all rape claims are false

You should definitely provide a link when you make a statement as potentially provocative as this. You'll want to have that date readily available to the reader as to back up your statement.

We never arrest accused murderers where there is a naked allegation of murder and an equally plausible denial by the suspect

Yes, okay. A false accusal of rape and one of murder isn't a very good comparison, I'll have to work on that. When there is a murder, there is generally some evidence that a murder has taken place, like a dead person, et cetera. In the bulk of rape cases this sort of concrete evidence is not available which makes the same sort of consideration of criminality a much trickier proposition.

why is he automatically arrested

Well, if he weren't, the police would be letting a potential rapist (at least a %50 chance, according to your earlier point) roam free. Rape is serious and hard to prove offense, the police can't look like they're doing nothing, can they? I don't necessarily think it makes it right, but I understand why it happens. I would be open to a discussion on how to refine this process.

people like you.

Seriously, knock this shit off.

You've got a valuable message, and I think you articulate it pretty well, but by the end of your reply I've been personally attacked so many times it makes it really difficult to maintain a rational discussion.

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It is too bad if some people feel my message comes across as "Evangelical" or that I am engaging in personal attacks. In point of fact, I don't know you, and I am attacking only your argument. As but one example, you suggest my assertion about the prevalence of rape is "provocative." To whom? THIS is the problem! You have labeled something objectively verifiable as "provocative." Are you at all familiar with the false rape landscape? Do you know about the major studies? Kanin's two studies? This is why I react as I do: I can't possibly educate everyone who has been brainwashed by 40 years of radical gender feminist lies. That's why I said you should visit my site -- look on the right side of the page and you'll see "false rape claims primer." You people are allowed to say whatever you want, including labeling a factual assertion as "provocative," and if I react with justifiable anger, I AM WEAKENING MY ARGUMENT!

The fact is, I am in a war, and the more confrontational I get, the bigger my readership. We ARE going to change some of these unfair laws.

[–]hatekillpuke -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't know you, and I am attacking only your argument

Well, the latter is certainly true, but as for the former I already pointed out what I thought constituted personal attacks and explained that you're losing a potential audience by being so grating.

"provocative." To whom?

To most people, I think. The issue is that "close to half" is far more occurrences of false accusations than the average person would guess, this is how is could be seen a potentially provocative. When you just throw it out there it sounds a bit ludicrous, and when you don't provide a citation it sounds like you might just be pulling it out of your ass.

THIS is the problem!

I agree! If this is indeed the case, the fact that people don't know about it is clearly a problem. This is why I suggested that you provide a citation link whenever you use this statistic (which I'm still waiting on). You say can't educate everyone, but you could certainly try a little more outreach and lot less attack.

Do you know about the major studies? Kanin's two studies?

No, I don't, as I'm fairly new to the Mens Rights movement. I figured the MensRights reddit would be a good place to learn. Instead, I get downvotes and virtually spat on. To be successful as a movement, I think that MRAs on the whole need to be a bit more patient and a lot less reactionary, otherwise you're going to drive away people who you could potentially reach.

brainwashed by 40 years of radical gender feminist lies ...You people...

See? It's stuff like this. I'm sure that wins over misguided anti-feminists, but even if someone isn't particularly feminist it could come off an unnecessarily spiteful.

By the way, do you really think that feminism as a whole has an anti-male agenda? This could not be further from the truth. Feminism is a movement that seeks equality by lifting up women to the higher station that men have traditionally held, and the movement has a long and rich history of making great strides with this strategy. Just because the focus is on benefitting women does not mean that is it trying to put down men. But because the focus of feminism is not men is exactly why a Mens Rights movement is needed, I think the two movements could fit together as great counterparts and could work together towards what are ultimately common goals.

I am in a war

Are you? Against whom? I'll bet you think feminism is the enemy. It's not, not at all. Sure, there are outspoken radical man-hating feminists, but basically only blowhards like Rush Limbaugh think that they have any influence, the vast majority of moderate feminists certainly don't. If one were to judge the Mens Rights movement similarly, by it's most outspoken obnoxious elements, the whole movement is easily dismissed as a few crackpot misogynists and rape-apologists. When you come on so angrily you're not helping to dispel that image at all.

the more confrontational I get, the bigger my readership

Maybe, but then your readership will consist of embittered assholes, and what you'll end up with a dichotomy akin to Republican vs Democrats, where both sides mainly just pitch insults at each other, blindly follow the loudest voices of their group, and nothing of substance gets done.

[–]PierceHarlan[S] 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Check out the right column on my site re: False rape primer before you try to argue about this subject. I did not mean to insult you but some of the things you've posited come off as so uninformed, almost hateful to the countless guys who read my site who've been falsely accused of rape -- I seriously don't have time to go through the whole false rape story here.

I will note this: I must chuckle when people like you misjudge what I am, what my site is -- you've stereotyped me without bothering to learn about the false rape community. No, feminism isn't the enemy. I subscribe to equity feminism myself. You know, Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers et al. She's a titan, and I'm sure you know who she is.

The leaders in my movement are people like Prof. Alan Dershowitz (you do know him, right?) He's about as far to the left as you get. http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2009/08/from-archives-greatest-champion-for.html And another lefty, Prof. Eugene Kanin: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2009/06/professor-kanins-report.html

I will say this: rape law and policies are the only areas where radical gender feminism (and you do know that that is different from the garden variety feminism that most Americans agree with, right?)controls the public discourse.

I don't think you are a radical gender feminist. I do think that you could stand to learn more about these subjects, and then maybe you'd be a good ally for us.

[–]hatekillpuke -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Veldang -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Hatekillpuke, i like your attitude. It really is a matter of personal priority as to which crime is more severe. Personally, they are equal; this is not just my view on rape but also murder. Any situation where the life of someone can be destroyed or severely compromised by a false or real conviction (both for victim and perpetrator).

PierceHarlans' tone is always an evangelical one (on this case in particular) and i hope it doesn't push you away from finding the answers you seek.

As for the data, please go to http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ (Pierces' site) on the right you shall see links to all the information that he quotes and the unbiased studies (some of these are quite frightening).

The problem with rape is there are not many crimes of a similar severity and nature (the victim remains intact). I would mostly liken it to domestic abuse (assault and the like) in that it can leave long term emotional/physical/financial damage and that the victim is capable of going to the police but often doesn't for many reasons (in rape it tends to be shame, whereas in domestic abuse it is misplaced love or potential outside consequences (loss of home)).

However in a lot of domestic abuse cases they don't tend to arrest the alleged perpetrator though often use other means of keeping tabs on them, questioning them and making sure they keep a distance from the alleged victim until some more definitive evidence comes to light. Though with that said thanks to continued feminist pressure the rules on this are even beginning to change (less the rules changing and more people turning a blind eye when they break them to get those "evil men").

Anyways, i hope that helped somewhat.

[–]hatekillpuke -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Hatekillpuke, i like your attitude

Hey, thanks man. Right back at you.

The problem with rape is there are not many crimes of a similar severity and nature

I think that's exactly right, and I think I'll use that line in future discussions. Half-assedly comparing rape with murder doesn't help my arguments any.

I think the difference in treatment you go on to discuss is because rape is so vulgar an act that it deeply offends a pervasive societal sensibility held by both men and women, it seems to demand action. Feminism has fought long and hard to help foster this attitude, it wasn't so long ago that rape was just something that was so shameful it was never talked about. From a movement that focuses on equality by improving the station of women, it's not entirely surprising that unintended consequences of its success might inadvertently hurt innocent men, and this is exactly why a Mens Rights movement is needed.

[–]Veldang 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]hatekillpuke -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link