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Is the MRM Left- or Right-Wing?

Ordinate1

December 1, 2017
0 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/crowdchart?Anonymous=-1.88%2C-3.18&mr_e=-5.63%2C-3.08&willow=-7.63%2C-6.77&theplummer=2.63%2C0.1&FlightlessBird=-8.13%2C-2.1&Beour3rd=-7.63%2C-6.0&StrongSilentType=-8.88%2C-7.54&name=Deidre&ec=-2.88&soc=-3.9
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Post Information
Title Is the MRM Left- or Right-Wing?
Author

Ordinate1

Upvotes 0
Comments 34
Date December 1, 2017 1:59 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7gv4ce/is_the_mrm_left_or_rightwing/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-the-mrm-left-or-right-wing.1173892
https://theredarchive.com/post/1173892
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Comments

[–]Mr_MRAnarchist 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Yes? I'm gonna say yes. You will find that there are people from both the left and the right here. However, I would guess that the more left you are the more you would simply believe the "feminism helps men too" bullshit and think MRAs are misogynists.

[–]ZombieP0ny 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it's so much a part of being left, although being far left does have a influence, and more being part of being authoritarian.

[–]Ordinate1[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

I would guess that the more left you are the more you would simply believe the "feminism helps men too" bullshit and think MRAs are misogynists.

And I would think that the more right you are, the less you care about anyone's rights.

Note that the only even remotely authoritarian contributor to the test was on the right...

[–]Mr_MRAnarchist 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, to be fair, even the most right leaning people have a dedicated self interest. So they may not give a fuck about other people's rights, but they would care about their own...

[–]Ordinate1[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah, but this ignores a central principle of evolutionary biology: Men compete for women, which means that a high status man who can oppress lower status men suffers fewer negative consequences, resulting in a relative gain, despite a net loss.

That's self interest trumping their own rights.

[–]bufedad 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

And I would think that the more right you are, the less you care about anyone's rights.

I would argue the opposite actually. The right to be left alone, and have control over your own life is what the right is worried about.

[–]Ordinate1[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I don't see how you can possibly support that statement; how does opposing LGBT rights, for example, fall under that rubric? Or trying to make it harder for poor people to vote?

Beyond that is the central argument that I have with Libertarians (as opposed to libertarians): The government is not the only thing that oppresses us, and is a key factor in fighting those other oppressions. That it can, in turn, become oppressive, is one of the oldest paradoxes of human civilization: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Put another way: What good are your "rights" if some corporation controls everything you see, do and think 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I don't see how you can possibly support that statement; how does opposing LGBT rights, for example, fall under that rubric?

It doesn't. I'd like to reiterate that not everyone on the right opposes LGBT rights.

Or trying to make it harder for poor people to vote?

No one tried to make it harder for poor people to vote. Only those who weren't citizens.

The government is not the only thing that oppresses us, and is a key factor in fighting those other oppressions. That it can, in turn, become oppressive, is one of the oldest paradoxes of human civilization: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

You can fight any oppression realistically, except that of the government. The government should have three real functions.

  • Common Defense
  • Negotiations between nations (e.g. Treaties, etc...)
  • Mediating when one entity infringes on the rights of another entity.

Other than that, it should stay out of people's lives.

Put another way: What good are your "rights" if some corporation controls everything you see, do and think 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Put another way: Corporations have not, and cannot do so. Governments can.

[–]plainwalk 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Corporations did essentially do that until unions formed. It was unions that created the five day, forty hour work week, not big business. Corporations hired muscle to beat, maim, or kill union leaders, until the government stepped in and legislated protections for unions. Corporations are still fighting to destroy unions, but have stopped hiring goons and turned to hiring politicians. Look at any 'work to right' state as an example.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Corporations did essentially do that until unions formed.

Corporations had a lot of power, but they did not and could not control you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Corporations hired muscle to beat, maim, or kill union leaders

You mean broke the law.

until the government stepped in and legislated protections for unions.

Yeah... nothing stops someone from breaking the law... than more laws.

Corporations are still fighting to destroy unions,

Unions are destroying themselves. Unions no longer offer anything of value.

The only way they can maintain the power they have is by forcing people to become members.

Look at any 'work to right' state as an example.

Right to work isn't an effort to destroy unions. Not every union is useful, or does a good job. Giving people freedom to choose is not an effort to destroy unions. It is, however, an effort to force unions to provide something for the dues they collect.

[–]Ordinate1[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I'd like to reiterate that not everyone on the right opposes LGBT rights.

And not everyone on the left wants to ban hate speech. If I have to own Antifa, you've got to own the Christian Right.

No one tried to make it harder for poor people to vote. Only those who weren't citizens.

No, you can't possibly justify all of the ID laws and voter roll purges with that one, not when there have only been a handful of actual voter fraud cases in living memory.

You can fight any oppression realistically, except that of the government.

Oh, so you're throwing away your entire justification for the 2nd amendment? That's nice to know, especially since I'm a gun owner.

The government should have three real functions.

Common Defense Negotiations between nations (e.g. Treaties, etc...) Mediating when one entity infringes on the rights of another entity. 

Well, that's nice that you think that, but that's not what our Constitution says; specifically, for example, it says to "provide for the common welfare," which meant exactly what it sounds like.

Put another way: Corporations have not, and cannot do so.

Ha! That might the the single most naive statement ever uttered by a human being.

Look around, man; you've got nothing but "fake news," from all sides! Propaganda and nonsense being fed to you by a half dozen conglomerates that own every media outlet in the country, all of which are owned by the same, small group of extremely wealthy families whose interests and goals do not, in any way, align with those of us who are not members of that club.

Incidentally, corporations controlling the media and, by extension (and bribery), the government has a name: Fascism; right-wing authoritarianism.

[–]bufedad 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And not everyone on the left wants to ban hate speech. If I have to own Antifa, you've got to own the Christian Right.

lol... no.

No, you can't possibly justify all of the ID laws and voter roll purges with that one

Aside from all the political rhetoric, there hasn't been a voter purge that's violated the law in place at the time. There hasn't been a voter ID law that was targeted at the poor.

Oh, so you're throwing away your entire justification for the 2nd amendment?

I'm saying that no one else can violate your rights without repercussions. Governments can straight up disappear you.

Ha! That might the the single most naive statement ever uttered by a human being.

And yet, you haven't countered it.

Incidentally, corporations controlling the media and, by extension (and bribery), the government has a name: Fascism; right-wing authoritarianism.

SMH... that is neither facism... nor right-wing authoritarianism.

Just.... just wow.

[–]Ordinate1[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

lol... no.

Then I don't have to own Antifa, and the left's reputation on free speech is impeccable.

Aside from all the political rhetoric, there hasn't been a voter purge that's violated the law in place at the time.

Both the state of Ohio and New York City were found to have illegally purged voter rolls last year.

There hasn't been a voter ID law that was targeted at the poor.

All voter ID laws target the poor.

I'm saying that no one else can violate your rights without repercussions.

Ha! Tell that to.... literally every company in America that has legally screwed over their customers, i.e. all of them.

Governments can straight up disappear you.

OK, do you want me to start with the Church of Scientology or to go straight to the corporate kidnapping epidemic?

And yet, you haven't countered it.

I gave you an example of what you claim cannot happen, that is happening.

Strange definitions of words you use.

SMH... that is neither facism... nor right-wing authoritarianism.

Then you need to go take some college history courses, because that is exactly what fascism is.

[–]Incident-Pit 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Fascism (in the looser sense of the word, incorporating the nazis, the flangists, and the fascists proper) is ultra-authoritarian centrism. Ideologically it's significantly to the left of the modern day Democrats. The last thing it was was right-wing.

[–]Ordinate1[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

No, that's revisionist political history at its worst.

Fascism is right-wing authoritarianism, implicit in class-based privilege; that they were "socialist" within their own class/race/ethnicity doesn't count as "left!"

[–]Incident-Pit 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Did I say they were left? No, not even remotely. Reread and then reshow your sloppy working. What I said was they were centrist, and they absolutely were.

[–]Ordinate1[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

But "centrist" implies some kind of balance between left and right; fascists have no "left" elements in their ideology, at all, but they do have many right-wing elements.

They are right-wing authoritarians.

[–]Incident-Pit1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you think that fascists had no left wing elements to their ideology and practice then you have either been grossly misinformed about what constitutes left wing or you are deliberately being obtuse.

[–]Ordinate11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

you have either been grossly misinformed about what constitutes left wing

One of us has, certainly.

Hint: Treating different classes of people differently, no matter how well you treat one group, can never be "left-wing."

[–]Incident-Pit1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, I'm glad we sorted that out. You don't know what left wing means. At all.

Left wing means state control of the economy, and usually by extension further state intervention in public life. Everything else is tacked on to that. Equality isn't a necessary condition for being left. Your grasp on politics is tangential at best.

What do you think the political compass numbers mean? I'm sure your explanation, if you ever proffer one, will be a roller coaster of hilarity.

[–]Ordinate11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Left wing means state control of the economy

No; no it doesn't.

Equality isn't a necessary condition for being left

Yes; yes it is.

If we can't get around these basic facts, then we cannot meaningfully communicate.

What do you think the political compass numbers mean?

Left and right refer to what the government should do; authoritarian and libertarian refer to how it should do it.

Specifically, "left" refers to workers having control of the means of production, whereas "right" refers to having a separate class of people who own the means of production. Equality, therefore, is implicit in left-wing ideology and entirely contrary to right-wing ideology.

Authoritarian vs libertarian have to do with how those policies get implemented; authoritarians want a powerful state controlling everything, whether it's to directly control corporations (socialism/communism) or to enforce the will of and protect the capitalist class (fascism/Nazism); libertarians want the government to be as lightly involved as possible while still maintaining a stable system, whether that is by regulating capitalist markets or by providing for union activity and cooperative corporate structures.

I really don't see why we can't do both and let the better system win.


I am a left-wing libertarian; I think that the government should only set and enforce rules and policies that are necessary to maintain a stable and prosperous society.

I just happen to think that this requires a decent bit of government.

[–]ee4m 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I scored left libertarian on that.

[–]Ordinate1[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Like most of us :)

[–]ee4m 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Left. Its a movement for average people and the majority of our intellectuals and so on are left.

[–]yuk0njack3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As Isaac Brock from Modest Mouse might say: "Right wing, left wing, chicken wing"

I think the MRA cause transcends politics TBH, although the further left you are the more likely you are to believe in feminism and not want to be an MRA in the first place.

[–]Aeternalis_ 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Taken the test multiple times and I always get dead center in both axis.

[–]BernieSandersgirl101 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If you add myself, you'll have one more on the Left Wing Libertarian scale. I think this is a movement in the center.

[–]rocelot7 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Neither. I'm not reducing politics, or human rights, to some arbitrary point on a scale.

[–]Ordinate1[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

First of all, let me say that, in my opinion, the answer to the question is, "No." The MRM should be neither left- nor right-wing.

Second, that is a chart of the Political Compass test results for a selection of members of the A Voice for Men forum that I put together. Note that I was banned from that forum for this and similar actions, so this is not representative of the staff of AVFM, at all.

Third, here's the link to the test:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/

If enough people take the test and post their scores, I'll make a chart and post it.

[–]bufedad 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Economic Left/Right: 0.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69

But there was a decidedly left bent to some of the questions, and no option to neither disagree nor agree... I'm slightly left of center in reality.

[–]Ordinate1[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's fair enough; I wouldn't claim it as an absolute measure (what would that even look like?), but for comparison purposes...

[–]SherbetKing2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Economic Left/Right: -5.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79

[–]imdog 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Economic Left/Right: 10.0 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.0

That political compass asks a lot of loaded questions though and I think the best one is: https://spekr.org

[–]Jasperinely -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Right wing.

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