Justice served. | MensRights

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[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (102 children) | Copy Link

So what you're saying is you keep a filthy house,

Apparently picking up after yourself is impossible and takes 6 hours a day? Right?

don't grocery shop or cook,

Oh yeah... that 1 hour a week of grocery shopping... oh the horror. Who can have a career if they have to shop for groceries one hour a week?

you don't pay bills,

Right, because you can't pay bills AND work a job....

, and you don't drive anywhere?

Yes, because someone being home can drive you places without you being involved...

You don't help with homework, discipline your children or spend any time with them?

All things that people who work jobs still do when they come home...

Aren't you supposed to be listing things that the stay at home person does?

Are you trying to argue that if a spouse gives up their career to stay home and raise children,

"Gives up their career". You mean quits and stays home... lol

that they should be left destitute in the event of a divorce? Or does that only apply to women?

Yes, if you leech off of someone, you don't get to keep leeching after you leave them.

[–]thedjmk0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bufedad2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]thedjmk-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Statistics disagree that everything else is split. In fact, that's rarely the case even in two-person working households.

That's also not a qualifier you were using before. Way to move the goalposts. Suddenly the working spouse is doing half of the household load as well?

Also, if cleaning your house takes an hour, you have a filthy house and please stop bragging about it.

Picking up your house takes an hour. Cleaning your house should take several hours.

Picking up alone, however, takes much longer if you have small children, and is a constant chore.

Window washing, carpet steaming, reorganizing closets, bedding washing, wiping down walls and disinfecting them, grout scrubbing, cleaning vents, replacing filters, cleaning the garbage disposal, cleaning out the washing machine and dishwasher, lawn work, sorting through children's clothes, dusting, and disinfecting, etc. are all tasks that need to be done regularly. I do them weekly, and they all take longer than an hour.

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[–]thedjmk0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, it doesn't. Because traditionally, women did those things when women were largely homemakers. You are really underestimating what women did in maintaining a home when we speak traditionally.

Moreover, tradition doesn't mean anything. It doesn't give us an objective metric that you were referring to, so your failure to clearly communicate belongs to you, not me. It doesn't give us a time frame, it doesn't give us objective metrics determine what qualifies, and it doesn't consider cultural distinctions.

If you want to be pedantic, you should at least be right.

You intend to argue any of the points, or do you plan on just focusing on this semantic difference?

Because the flesh of the debate is that you are wrong, the study did account for that differential, and the domestic responsibilities division is generally not equal amongst even two parent working households.

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[–]thedjmk0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Prove what? That roof labor, lawnscaping, and vehicle maintainence are often outsourced labor?

Vehicles:

The DPT of Labor estimates the need for 76,000 mechanics to be added to the existing 750,000 in the country in order to keep up with existing and projected demands:

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-ne-auto-tech-shortage-nationwide-who-will-fix-our-cars-20190809-bm77cet2jfgqdcpe2rekebll6u-story.html

Roofers have a "much higher than expected" employment growth and projection rate at 12% for 2018.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/mobile/roofers.htm

And grounds maintenance workers are projected to have a "higher than average" employment growth rate, at 9%.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/building-and-grounds-cleaning/mobile/grounds-maintenance-workers.htm

Now, the limitations of those projections are that they include both commercial and individual work, so while the employment numbers indicate growth in all areas, the bifurcation is questionable.

So, let's look elsewhere.

Nearly half of vehicle owners report not being to so much as change their own oil and over 30% couldn't so much as identify the type of oil needed.

41% couldn't even identify the engine when presented with an image. This lends significant evidentiary credence to the point that these repairs are not performed at home by either gender.

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/many-americans-dont-know-basic-car-care-study-finds

This is underscored by how few Americans even understand the function of electric vehicles.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/ford-says-americans-lack-knowledge-of-electric-cars/

And other studies found similar results.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/draft-60-percent-people-can-t-change-flat-tire-most-n655501

40% of Americans with lawns hired someone to do lawn care. That's nearly half, and a significant percentage.

https://landscape-business.com/national-survey-finds-40-percent-of-americans-with-a-yard-hired-professionals-for-lawn-or-landscape-work-in-the-last-year/

Now to roofing. Although we don't have statistics on how many people repair their own roofs (or at least I couldn't find them), we do know that a common insurance provision is not to pay out unless a qualified contractor is hired, which, when coupled with growing employment statistics, lends significant evidentiary support to my claim.

https://www.cornerstoneroof.com/rorys-blog/83-tips/143-can-i-replace-or-repair-my-own-roof-without-hiring-a-roofer

Conversely, maid services are on the decline, with a projected .3% decrease by 2026, with only 700,000(approx) workers employed by private households, and the majority providing care to the elderly.

Note the distinction here - direct employment versus services rendered.

https://www.qualityinfo.org/-/private-households-employing-the-nation-s-invisible-workforce

Do you need more proof?

If so, please specify what type of proof you'd like.

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[–]Dabookadaniel1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Really cute that you only answered here instead of where I laid out how you manipulated it but that’s fine I’ll copy and paste:

Holy shit the way you’re presenting these statistics is so fucking manipulative it’s almost evil. That 1.2% for women means 1.2% of the women surveyed were raped in the preceding twelve months of the survey alone. And another thing, you know what frequently happens to a lot of women after they’re raped? They’re fucking murdered. Guess who can’t take your little survey? A fuckin dead girl.

Edit: Just so you understand: You can’t take data from a survey across multiple criteria and pick and choose how to present it. The survey is presenting liftetime statistics, and at certain points highlights incidents of sexual violence within the last 12 months from the day the survey was taken. You can’t present the lifetime data for men and then decide to present the data for women they highlight from the last 12 months. It’s completely manipulative. I also don’t know where you’re getting the data point for “non consensual sex” here since they model the survey across 4 criteria

Four types of sexual violence are included in this brief report. These include rape, being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, and unwanted sexual contact.

[–]bufedad5 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Dabookadaniel1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The 1.2% for women is rape in the last 12 months

Only 2.6% of men have been raped in their lives you fucking worm

I don’t even know where you’re getting the 1.5% from because I don’t see 1.5% come up anywhere in the stats for men but you’re free to help me out. I’ll provide the link to the study since you were obviously privy to all this information but didn’t want to share it

Edit: You just did it again. You went from 1.5% of men were forced into non consensual sex, to 1.5% of men were raped. To illustrate my point for the last time, “forced into non consensual sex” is not a criteria used anywhere in the study. It is broken down into the 4 I have listed above. You’re pulling that statistic completely out of your ass. And despite your lies, the study very much does consider men rape victims, it’s just far more specific than your broad definition. But it doesn’t matter, because they have an umbrella statistic listed that includes all the types of sexual violence in the study but you didn’t mention it because it makes your point invalid.

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[–]Dabookadaniel-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lmao. You have not sent a single fucking link this whole time and now you’re sending the older report that doesn’t include the latest data year, the one they have up on the website and the one I linked.

And, just because men come up higher in that specific statistic doesn’t mean they are fucking raped more you idiot. It just means that they were victims of that specific kind of sexual violence. The reason women don’t come up as high in that specific criteria is because it is such an uncommon mode of sexual violence for them. They specifically distinguish between the different kinds of sexual assault to get as much clear and precise data on sexual violence, but that doesn’t mean men aren’t included in the general statistic of sexual violence or the more specific rape statistic. You are using an extremely specific criteria and applying it to the general rape statistic and it doesn’t work like that. You’re either an idiot or a troll but youre finished either way.

[–]duhhhh2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. You should listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is a sexual assault on a woman. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. /r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females.

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been pretty close between the sexes every year.

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

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[–]thedjmk 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think the value swings particularly wildly, but that isn't what's being assessed when it comes to a division of assets, and it's not an argument I made.

My entire point was that the labor exists, and that there is value to that labor when it comes to a division of assets.

His argument attempted to be that there used to be a 50/50 division of that labor, which has never been true, and/or that that labor has no intrinsic value, which is simply not true.

If both parties decide that one party will stay home for whatever reason, there is an obligation to compensate for that loss, as well as that sacrifice.

I'm not going to say what that should be, because that's dependent on each circumstance, but to pretend it's simply not true in order to further a specific narrative is absurd.

The reality is men do have unique challenges in society that are systemic and do need to be addressed. But when you guys advocate for silly shit like claiming a former spouse has no contribution to a marriage or career and that it's acceptable to leave them penniless, it's hard to pay any attention to the real issues.

[–]HerbDeanosaur 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TetraThiaFulvalene 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ChucklesMalone -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wyota -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Justice served.
Author	Mr-Hargreaves
Upvotes	271
Comments	153
Date	April 20, 2020 3:26 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g4ut8b/justice_served/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/justice-served.1198952 https://theredarchive.com/post/1198952

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