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Masculinity is CRUCIAL

someone_butnoone

September 30, 2021
35 upvotes
/r/MensRights

https://youtu.be/KEz32OTifL4

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Post Information
Title Masculinity is CRUCIAL
Author

someone_butnoone

Upvotes 35
Comments 38
Date September 30, 2021 5:05 AM UTC
(4 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/pycwsm/masculinity_is_crucial/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/masculinity-is-crucial.1073440
https://theredarchive.com/post/1073440
Top posts by someone_butnoone

Just needed to appreciate...

44 upvotes
October 1, 2021
/r/MensRights

This needs to be brought to attention.

1 upvotes
October 3, 2021
/r/MensRights

You sure u wanna do this? Entitlement shines through. A woman has no place if she doesn't earn it.

1 upvotes
October 14, 2021
/r/MensRights

And for men? oh yea, basically none... gee, I wonder why

1 upvotes
October 14, 2021
/r/MensRights

Comments

[–]SolarEngine89 21 points22 points23 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I think we should not refer to "toxic masculinity " at all, sans the case we say it is a fraud, a lie and not real. We should not, even for a second, consider, that it is something right in the term.

Same as "patriarchy" is a conspiracy theory, "toxic masculinity" is just a lie.

[–]TheStumblingWolf 14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I've experienced my share of toxic women, so there's no reason to make it gender specific other than to slander men for existing.

[–]SolarEngine89 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Precisely. But when you say, that there're some shitty people it is not political agenda anymore.

Damn. I am really tired of this hags constantly screeching their stupid claims.

I think I should really manage my social filters to not to hear this anymore. Luckily it mostly happens in web in my case.

[–]Danube27 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The way I see it, people can act in ways that harm others and are also self-destructive as a result of personal insecurities. This is what i'd call toxic behaviour.

Are there insecurities specific to men and related to their masculinity? I think yes. Ergo, there is also a form of toxic behaviour brought forth from these insecurities, but toxic masculinity would be a misnomer IMO. It's more like a masculine toxicity.

By the same logic, is there also feminine toxicity? Of course. Which is worse? I don't know and don't care much to find out.

Regardless, being masculine is not a bad thing. I'd even argue we need masculine people in this society. It would be nice if all of them were confident in their masculinity and weren't ever insecure about it, but nobody's perfect.

[–]seii7 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow, yes, masculine toxicity is indeed a much better way to refer to it, it’s such a simple change but it makes the term so much more accurate, thank you for this, it puts my views on the subject into a very concise term that isn’t the popular original phrase.

[–]SolarEngine89 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You completely miss my point and not very good in propaganda, yes?

[–]Danube27 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I wasn't contradicting you. The usage of the term "toxic masculinity" by neofeminists and the like always frames things in such a way as to suggest all masculinity is toxic. And, as stated I disagree with that, and thus wouldn't use the term myself.

[–]someone_butnoone[S] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

truth

[–]iDressLikeGrandpa -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy is not a conspiracy

[–]TheKoalaPrincess 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes!! I recently just wrote a long-winded post about being happiest in my own true femininity while embracing and respecting masculinity. Masculinity IS crucial, please never give in to the demands of bitter feminists who only perpetuate hatred toward men, I promise you ARE valued.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/pyeto0/originally_i_tried_posting_this_to_runpopular/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[–]someone_butnoone[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thx so much. I'm tremendously grateful. We dont get alot of these😅

[–]locks_are_paranoid 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I assume this video has already been demonitized.

[–]demonitize_bot -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey there! I hate to break it to you, but it's actually spelled monetize. A good way to remember this is that "money" starts with "mone" as well. Just wanted to let you know. Have a good day!


This action was performed automatically by a bot to raise awareness about the common misspelling of "monetize".

[+][deleted] -14 points-13 points-12 points 4 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

I think people are missing the point very badly. The problem isn't masculinity itself. What Jordan is talking about is quite noble, but some people hold on to it in a very negative way.

In my experience, toxic masculinity is never allowing oneself to be weak or to show weakness, even if beyond trusted ones, and thay involves never crying, hardly asking for help, and many other detrimental actions. Toxic masculinity is saying "men don't have emotions", and that can come from men themselves. Go listen to rap songs and how much toxic masculinity is celebrated there, and this comes from someone who loves rap and listens to it almost everyday.

Toxic masculinity is labelling a man doing feminine things/ showing femininity as something negative. In my experiences, a man who likes flowers, gardening, cooking, the pink color, or even fucking pop music is not a man, is a f*****, is a sissy.

Toxic masculinity is believing a woman needs a man for anything, in a dependent way. That type of attitude is very detrimental.

I think that a lot of the people who dismiss the concept of toxic masculinity do so because they think this criticism is directed towards the "positive" aspects of masculinity, when it's towards the negatives, which impact men the most.

[–]gratis_eekhoorn 10 points11 points12 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

In my experience, toxic masculinity is never allowing oneself to be weak or to show weakness, even if beyond trusted ones, and thay involves never crying, hardly asking for help, and many other detrimental actions.

Is that why 90% of middle aged male suicide victims received or seeked professional "help"?

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/npvap2/91_of_middleaged_men_who_committed_suicide_were/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

"men don't have emotions", and that can come from men themselves. Go listen to rap songs and how much toxic masculinity is celebrated there, and this comes from someone who loves rap and listens to it almost everyday.

Is that why men are usually more comfortable opening up to other men than women, is that why it's usually mothers who enforce "boys don't cry" to their sons?

source

Toxic masculinity is labelling a man doing feminine things/ showing femininity as something negative. In my experiences, a man who likes flowers, gardening, cooking, the pink color, or even fucking pop music is not a man, is a f*****, is a sissy.

As if it's only men who shame other men for having "feminine traits" women shame men for that as much as other men do if not more.

Toxic masculinity is believing a woman needs a man for anything, in a dependent way. That type of attitude is very detrimental.

Tell that to family courts

I think that a lot of the people who dismiss the concept of toxic masculinity do so because they think this criticism is directed towards the "positive" aspects of masculinity, when it's towards the negatives, which impact men the most.

"Positive masculinity" just means "traditional masculine roles when it benefits women" according to people who use the term "toxic masculinity"

[–]mug-buliku 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is that why 90% of middle aged male suicide victims received or seeked professional "help"?

The past tense of seek is sought, just so you know.

[–]gratis_eekhoorn 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for warning, English is not my first language.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Is that why 90% of middle aged male suicide victims received or seeked professional help?

Not sure how thats relivent. Are you saying there is no social stigma against men getting emotional support/help?

Is that why men are usually more comfortable opening up to other men than women, is that why it's usually mothers who enforce "boys don't cry" to their sons?

Whats that have anything to do with what I said?

As if it's only men who shame other men for having "feminine traits" women shame men for that as much as other men do if not more

Its not only men? Huh? I never said that. I said society as a whole feels like that.

Tell that to family courts

What???? Huh??????? Its a big problem in family courts, are you saying fathers get fair custody of their children every time?? What the hell are you talking about???

"Positive masculinity" just means "traditional masculine roles when it benefits women" according to people who use the term "toxic masculinity

????? No??? What the fuck

[–]gratis_eekhoorn 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Not sure how thats relivent. Are you saying there is no social stigma against men getting emotional support/help?

It is relevant because high rates of male suicide blamed on "toxic masculinity" as if that is because "those macho men dont seek help because they dont want to show weakness to anyone" but that study shows otherwise

There is a social stigma against men and they dont enough emotional support, it's called the empathy gap.

Whats that have anything to do with what I said?

It shows that both genders are responsible for enforcing gender roles

Its not only men? Huh? I never said that. I said society as a whole feels like that.

If it's not only men then why is it called "toxic masculunity" instead of "harmful gender roles"? why do we never hear about "toxic femininity"? I'll tell why because that is an ill intented term to attack masculinity.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It is relevant because high rates of male suicide blamed on "toxic masculinity" as if that is because "those macho men dont seek help because they dont want to show weakness to anyone"

There is a social stigma against men and they dont enough emotional support, it's called the emphaty gap

Its like your implying I disagree with what you said. Where the fuck did that come from? What the fuck does that have anything to do with my comment?

It shows that both genders are responsible for enforcing gender roles

Did you assume I said otherwise? What the fuck

it's not only men then why is it called "toxic masculunity" instead of "harmful gender roles"? why do we never hear about "toxic femininity"? I'll tell why because that is an ill intented term to attack masculinity.

No fucking shit? Do you think I didn't fucking know that?

And toxic femininity isn't the same as toxic masculinity. Toxic femininity refers to women using their gender roles to get unfair/undeserved privileges. Its not commonly used because most of mainstream news/entertainment leans closer to new age feminism.

[–]gratis_eekhoorn 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You argument is basically: "Even though men are not the only ones to blame for their own problems saying their problems are caused by toxic masculinity is justified"

that is like saying: "People of color are more likelly to commit crimes, Even though we cant blame all of it on them as there are socioeconomic factors we can still call it "toxic blackness".

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Pretty close. The problems are not caused by toxic masculinity, the problems are toxic masulinity.

that is like saying: "People of color are more likelly to commit crimes, Even though we cant blame all of it on them as there are socioeconomic factors we can still call it "toxic blackness".

The socioeconomic and cultural factors would be the equivalent for toxic blackness.

[–]gratis_eekhoorn 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well looks like more we discuss, more we discover that we agree on some points, I personally dont have a problem with your definition of "toxic masculinity" I just don't like the name of that term, with that being said, the vast majority of people who use that term dont have the same definition nor the intentions as yours, they usually use it to victim blame men for their own problems.

It wouldn't be okay to use a term called "toxic blackness" so why should it be okay to say "toxic masculinity"?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The vast majority of people don't know what the term means besides that they think it means all men are bad. Below i just copy and pasted my previous comment to someone else.

It wouldn't be okay to use a term called "toxic blackness" so why should it be okay to say "toxic masculinity"?

Because you don't really need to and the term was just never coined. Im actually surprised I found this from the guardian

Why black people discriminate among ourselves: the toxic legacy of colorism https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/apr/09/colorism-racism-why-black-people-discriminate-among-ourselves

Because the term was coined by a man who was one of the first to study male abuse in prisons, with his 3 areas of study being why  

1) would rape & beat other prisoners especially when they never did that kind of thing prior to prison 2) why men who were victims and witnesses wouldn't report 3) why these men victims of sexual assault didn't seek treatment either for physical or mental damage

Its a term describing the particular male psychology.

Feminsit could very easily reword the term to avoid conflict YET THEY DONT proving that the intention behind the specific wordinf of the term is to blame men and masculinity for everything.

New Age Feminists use the term to say all men are evil or whatever. Feminists did not create the word or coin it.

This is such a tiring complaint this sub seems to have.

[–]SokalDidNothingWrong 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

The problem with "toxic masculinity" is it's a tautology but no-one agrees on the meaning.

There's academics who argue that it has a specific meaning. But they'll disagree on the specific meanings.

I think it's part of a larger problem in academia - if you can't contribute hard facts, you need to write bullshit. You can either write stuff that is specific but probably wrong (and it won't get published because one of the reviewers will pick up that you've made a statement that can't be proven, and they disagree with you) or you can make noises that sound like they're saying something, and are impossible to disprove because they don't actually mean anything concrete.

Every gender studies professors can agree "bad masculinity is bad". They can't agree why, or even what constitutes "bad masculinity", but they can all kind of agree that there are negative things about masculinity, so no-one really needs to be proven wrong if they just use airy buzzwords like that.

Psychologists have roughly as challenging a field, when it comes to things being hard to pin down. But you don't often hear psychology academics saying things that are anywhere near as mushy. If a psychologist professor finds that a high level of trait X is associated with outcome Y then they might be right or wrong (or maybe it was contextual) but at least they said something that's both meaningful and provable / disprovable.

If something can't be disproven (in principal) then it's just meaningless nonsense.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Nope, toxic masculinity has a clear definition. Oxford describes it best as "a set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole"

Every gender studies professors can agree "bad masculinity is bad". They can't agree why, or even what constitutes "bad masculinity",

Toxic masculinity isn't "masculinity in a negative way". An example of toxic masculinity is the idea that women are being dependent on men for support.

[–]RockmanXX 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

a set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole"

Which can be literally ANYTHING the Man hating Feminists don't like. Since there's no fixed limit or a clearly defined list on these so called "negative expectations&attitudes" its basically open season for feminists to police Men's behaviors.

An example of toxic masculinity is the idea that women are being dependent on men for support.

That idea stems from the traditional male gender role, this also applies to Classic Romance where the man sacrifices&Fights to win over the love of a woman, whereas a woman has to do nothing but exist.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Which can be literally ANYTHING the Man hating Feminists don't like

You missed the "on men and on society as a whole" part.

That idea stems from the traditional male gender role, this also applies to Classic Romance where the man sacrifices&Fights to win over the love of a woman, whereas a woman has to do nothing but exist.

Why would you even comment that? Ok? Ya, thats what I said.

[–]RockmanXX 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

You missed the "on men and on society as a whole" part.

I DID NOT, i just won't even trust a pencil eraser with a Feminist, let alone the Authority to be the arbiter of what's "Toxic" and "Non-Toxic" Masculinity!!

No no no, nope!! Men should come together and decide what's Toxic Masculinity, NOT A GROUP OF WOMEN. Women have no right to talk about my personal struggles unless i allow them to. Women cannot just "assume" the authority to speak on behalf of me, i speak for myself!! That goes for ALL men's Issues, Men will speak about their own issues, Women cannot assume authority in this process.

[–]someone_butnoone[S] 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Toxic masculinity isnt real. Just call it negative pressure or expectations. Masculinity isnt toxic. The behavior of misunderstanding what it is is what's toxic about it. Masculinity IS positive. Its what people do with it that brings negative or positive views on it. And what ppl are doing is trying to get rid of it completely which is ofc, wrong

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Toxic masculinity

No, its a description for negative pressure or expectations related to men.

Masculinity isnt toxic

Correct.

Its what people do with it that brings negative or positive views on it.

No, toxic masculinity is not masculinity.

[–]someone_butnoone[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Wrong. Toxic masculinity shouldnt be AT ALL assosiated with masculinity. Negative pressure and expectations should be called negative pressure and expectations. Simple. A bunch of feminists fools who think Masculinity is "patriarchal" and want to abolish masculinity itself thinking they are doing the right thing. They are making men unable to defend themselves

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You didn't read my original comment.

Negative pressure and expectations should be called negative pressure and expectations. Simple

They are. But a word is needed specifically for this type of negative pressure and expectations.

A bunch of feminists fools who think Masculinity is "patriarchal" and want to abolish masculinity itself thinking they are doing the right thing. They are making men unable to defend themselves

Yep

[–]someone_butnoone[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

If a word is needed DONT use the term masculinity in it. People use it to shame men and masculinity itself

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

But it relates to men? Calling it toxic societal expectations doesn't convey the same message. You can complain to Kruper that the terms being used against men by new age feminists, as I already said.

And thanks for the downvotes bud, really promotes conversations

[–]someone_butnoone[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It doesnt matter if it relates to men. Just express it by "negative pressure and expectations targetted at men such as....." easy

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If you want to do that then that's fine, your just going to confuse alot of people. I on the other hand will use the academic term.

[–]someone_butnoone[S] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure, use the other term, cause more suffering and pain due how misrepresented it is. This academic term was created by the idiots for the idiots

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