MR, I've got an odd hypothetical....

2011-02-16T00:36:39+00:00

[permanently deleted]

pcarvious · 2011-02-15T23:53:51+00:00

The burden of proof isn't on the accuser realistically. It's on the accused. Your hypothetical person would have to prove consent in the event that one woman did come forward to claim rape. There's also the possibility that one of these women, or a woman that knows of his reputation ends up pregnant and fingers him. He can ask for a paternity test, but it may or may not be granted. More than that, he would then have to fight the child support agency to get off the hook. Good luck there.

There's also the links on the sidebar about false DV and RAPE claims that you should look through. He's setting himself up for a hell of a lot of problems. The best option is to confront him with the reality of the situation. The gain is not worth the possible loss.

Xeno505 · 2011-02-16T02:06:11+00:00

This is all hypothetical.

First, you need to assess the accusations - not all women are the lying whores men make them out to be, and they're not all honest altruists as all women would have you believe. If YOU, given all the evidence you have at your disposal, believe these accusations do OR EVEN COULD hold water, here's how you proceed:

If you think the accusations are 100% bogus, let him know people are dragging his name through the mud and be done with it.

If you think they might be legit, ASK HIM ABOUT IT and either way advise him to smarten up and stop fucking drunk girls. If he is genuinely shocked, set him straight and advise him not to continue doing that shit. If he gets defensive, warn him that his ass is going to wind up in jail if he keeps that shit up.

InfinitelyThirsting · 2011-02-16T15:26:21+00:00

You need to talk to him about consent. It's still rape even if he doesn't violently force them. If they're saying no, he needs to stop. Period. He's a rapist, taking advantage of women who can't fight back--but he might not realise it. Try to help him before it's too late, just in case he's not a scumbag doing it on purpose.

snoopyzanus · 2011-02-16T18:12:37+00:00

Here's the key point: your hypothetical is based on "it is said."

There are two ways to analyze this: as if this is what actually happened and whether it's rape or not, and as if these are allegations that may or may not be accurate descriptions of what actually happened.

You have set up a number of things that would be termed rape under certain definitions that I have seen asserted by feminists before.

First, is it rape if a man has sex with a drunk girl? By itself, no, unless she is insensible or unconscious; most drunken sex will involve two drunk people anyway. Drunk drivers don't get off the hook for their choices and actions. Women don't get accused of rape when they have sex with drunk men.

Is it rape if he doesn't verbally ask for consent? Do women ever ask for men's? How many women have raped men by this definition? All of the sexually active ones? If a woman jumps on and starts inserting herself, does the man have to ask before she manages to put it in to avoid becoming a rapist?

Saying that they wanted to leave. How? With a serious expression and tone of voice, saying "I want to leave. Now!" while pushing the guy away and attempting to leave, is different from "I really should get going" uttered while the woman is still actively engaging in foreplay, while batting her eyelashes up at the man, as if to say "convince me to stay."

The former is a clear message, while the latter can't reasonably be taken to mean "I don't want to have sex with you and want to get out of here as soon as possible."

Let me rest on the following point for a while, because it's one of the most dangerous, for both men and women.

It's pretty much taboo to point out in public, but the fact is that many women play games of token resistance (stopping the man's hands and the like) in order not to seem easy. They want the man to overcome this and keep going. I'm reminded of this Louis C.K. bit.

Let me make my position on this clear: I hate that crap and for me "no means no" and if the woman can't bring herself to drop that shit, we will never have sex. I don't want to leave myself open to being accused of rape even if it is clear from the woman's expression and body language that she wants me to keep going.

Now, the danger here for men is that even if they correctly recognize a woman's token resistance for what it is and have wonderful, mutually enjoyable sex afterward, she can still claim that she said and did things that indicated she wasn't interested if she comes to regret the sex at a later date.

The dangerous thing for women is that because some women really do play this stupid game, some men may misinterpret any resistance on your part that isn't strongly expressed as being part of this hard-to-get crap.

Finally, unless we are going to make laws that say that if the woman has been drinking it is rape, then in he said/she said alleged date rape cases with no evidence, how are we to distinguish between real cases of rape from embellished stories of drunken sex regretted later, or bad boy sex a sober woman doesn't want to own up to willingly having?

hypn0fr0g · 2011-02-16T02:10:47+00:00

Don't get shitfaced and go home with random guys? Ever seen where it says "Please drink responsibly" on an alcoholic beverage? There is a reason why.

AnnArchist · 2011-02-16T02:21:12+00:00

If they didn't say no and let him take off their clothes, well, then I couldn't convict someone of rape.

I'd tell him that you heard soandso say this and that he might want to be careful to be sure to get verbal consent in the future.

Godspiral · 2011-02-16T03:42:27+00:00

The crucial point is that I'm hearing this stuff from various people who aren't connected - women who don't know each other are talking about the same bad experience.

The commonality is the interviewer. "Are you a whore, or did he prey on your drunkedness to spoil your precious gift?" is going to have commonality in answers without conspiracy.

There is a conspiracy, and you are leading it. You could best help by disuading the girls that they have a legitimate complaint. Do similar things happen to them regularly?, and why do they keep getting drunk in pickup bars?

If you want to help him, you can warn him that drunk twits can easily manipulate themselves into revising consent when they are sober.

Title	MR, I've got an odd hypothetical....
Author	falsehood
Upvotes	6
Comments	32
Date	February 15, 2011 11:44 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/fm63d/mr_ive_got_an_odd_hypothetical/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mr-ive-got-an-odd-hypothetical.1043109 https://theredarchive.com/post/1043109

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