Some Questions

iainmf · 2020-12-16T08:42:46+00:00

Researchers should contact the mods before posting, but as this seems to be for high school, I will allow it.

iainmf · 2020-12-16T08:53:45+00:00

Here's some things everyone should agree with.

Everyone has human rights.
Human rights need to be protected.
No group's human rights are less important than any other group's.
People should be encouraged and supported to advocate for their own human rights

Now if everyone agrees with those premises then we can make some conclusions

Men's rights should be protected
Men's rights should be considered as important as everyone else's
MRA's should not be stigmatized for advocating for their rights

The question is do feminists reach the same conclusions? If they don't then they must have different premises or faulty logic.

OkLetterhead10 · 2020-12-16T11:48:25+00:00

In a lot of areas men don't have equal rights, for example domestic violence protection. watch this documentary to understand more.

AnalBerserkerReturn · 2020-12-16T09:17:32+00:00

1) What's your overall opinion on the four waves of feminism, especially modern feminism?

Not found of it in the sens where the hypothesis of the patriarchy put the blame of women on it (okay with this) but put also the blame of men's issue on it. In a way it is framing the men's issues as a byproduct of how women are poorly treated. It means that whatever the issue is, the women are the primary victim (see Hillary Clinton once said that "women have always been the primary victims of war.")

It has two effects. First it is a way of denying men's issues or minimise it. Secondly it frame the women as the sole victim hence with hypoagency hence it enforce gender stereotype.

The wage gap myth is still alive.

The main problem is more about seen an outcome screaming sexism when the reason of this outcome is not known. (Most people in CEO, president, etc are men) and the other wihch is paired, is the use of the apex fallacy and supposing that men at power use this power to benefit other men.

2) Do you feel that men are oppressed or treated unfairly in today's society? If so, why?

Watch the media and see that even if men are more likely to be infected by the COVID and 50% more likely do die from it, women are the most affected by COVID plus the victim blaming (see article where men are said to be careless about hygiene, smoke etc).

See how missinformation is spreaded by media and feminism. Partner abuse? Studies show symmetries of it. And when there are no bidirectional violence, it is initiated 70% of the case by women. No shelter or a ridiculous amount of it compared to the needs.

See how prevention against partner abuse always protray men as the perpetrator and women as the victim

See the gender sentence gap where even when you controle for the crime, record and circumstances, men have a way longer sentence than men have.

See how even official rapport about gender equality made an indicator ignoring when women have an advantage over men but did point out when men have one on women.

3)Do you think feminists do enough to help men?

imo feminism do not help men and even harm them. A lot of official and influencial feminist (Mary Koss) said made to penetrate was not rape (ie the person coerce you into penetrating her/him, mostly perpetrate by women).

Plus the point 1)

Plus the fact that they use incomplet version of History, statistics (if it is not completly biased, ie doing a study on partner abuse asking only to men with anger issues if they abused their partner etc.) to push their hypothesis.

4)What would your perfect society look like between men and women? What laws/ practices would be created/abolished?

Here i have not enough knowledge about the current law in USA as i dont live there. I would say proper treaatement of each. Like for the partner abuse, giving proportional number of shelter according to the needs.

Not seing men being poorly treated as normal. Being more fair in the justice sytem so there is no gender sentence gap of realy a minimal one (it is not possible to control all the parameter)

Stoping the missinformation.

Stoping bashing/demonizing men in media etc whenever it is possible.

Making gender role more flexible and descriptive instead of prescriptive and so one.

Here are some idea

OkLetterhead10 · 2020-12-16T11:48:01+00:00

How do some feminists oppose efforts to help men?

A proposal at Simon Fraser University (near Vancouver) to open up a men’s centre on campus (to address issues like suicide, addiction, and negative stereotypes) was opposed by the existing women’s centre. Their alternative suggestion was a “male allies project” to “bring self-identified men together to talk about masculinity and its harmful effects”.

Author Warren Farrell went to give a talk on the boys’ crisis (boys dropping out of school and committing suicide at higher rates) at the University of Toronto, but he was opposed by protesters who “barricaded the doors, harassed attendees, pulled fire alarms, chanted curses at speakers and more”. Opposition included leaders in the student union.

Three students at Ryerson University (also in Toronto) tried to start a men’s issues club. They were blocked by the student union, which associated the idea with supposed “anti-women’s rights groups” and dismissed the idea of sexism against men as an “oppressive concept”. The union passed a motion saying it rejects “Groups, meetings events or initiatives [that] negate the need to centre women’s voices in the struggle for gender equity”.

Professor Janice Fiamengo tried to give a talk in Ottawa on men’s issues, only to be interrupted by students shouting, blasting horns, and pulling the fire alarm.

Christian Hoff Sommers (known for her conservative/individualist/libertarian perspective on gender issues) gave a talk at Oberlin College in Ohio. Activists hung up posters identifying the names of those who invited her as “supporters of rape culture”.

A student at Durham University in England was affected by the suicide of a close male friend, and so he tried to open up a “male human rights society” on campus. His proposal was rejected by the Societies Committee as “controversial”, and he was told he could only have a men’s group as a branch of the Feminist Society on campus.

Journalist Cathy Young spoke at Saint Paul University (part of the University of Ottawa) in September 2015, on the topics of campus gender politics, GamerGate, neglect of men’s issues, and focusing on women’s victimization (for sexual violence and cyber-bullying). Masked protesters called her “rape apologist scum” and pulled the fire alarm.

In 2015, the University of York announced its intention to observe International Men’s Day. A torrent of criticism ensued, including an open letter to the university claiming that such a day “does not combat inequality, but merely amplifies existing, structurally imposed, inequalities”. The university cancelled the plans and affirmed that “the main focus of gender equality work should continue to be on the inequalities faced by women”. In contrast, its observation of International Women’s day a few months earlier was a week long affair with more than 100 events.

Read the article here.

DelightfulFronds · 2020-12-16T10:03:50+00:00

Look in to anti-male institutional bias in education. That should sink any claims of Mens Rights being unnecessary. The fact that female teachers downgrade male students is a good one.

Only two suggestions:

No editorializing and overly emotional statements. Don't tell people how to feel about things, simply present the evidence.
Back up everything you say with academic studies and official stats. They do exist for most of it as without overwhelming proof you will not be believed.

accidental_me · 2020-12-16T10:47:26+00:00

You could attack their core beliefs: patriarchy, violence against women, historical oppression, power relations, rape culture, economic injustices. That's not easy because a) people tend to believe in the feminist narrative and feel automatically sympathy for women and b) it's hard to attack them without rather deep knowledge of the subjects (and googling produces mostly feminist results because feminism is such a big business, not because Google necessarily favors feminism in its search results).

Another way is to attack them from a moral perspective. Are men really such shitty people, why it's OK to imply they are and so on? After all, claiming, for example, that there is a rape epidemic implies exactly that. But that, once again, is very hard because sympathy is probably going to be on the feminist - and women's - side. They can claim that feminism is not morally corrupt and you can't convince the audience otherwise. Feelings are not going to be on your side.

You could attack this conclusion instead of the "premises". Because of those fundamental - and oppressive - structures, the world we live in is supposed to a nasty place for women. But is it really? The premises look weak if the end result doesn't exist. Although it's pretty obvious that women are actually better off than men in most parts of the western world, it's once again hard to convince a typical audience of it without lengthy explanations and credible sources. Besides, they can always say that it's power that they are lacking, not a comfortable standard of living.

I know you didn't ask why it's hard but perhaps it's good to know what you might be up against.

Perhaps the way to go is what u/iainmf suggested, namely frame the conversation as a human-rights issue. Then again they won't let you stay within that frame but start talking about all kinds of (alleged) injustices "mostly or only women are victims of", like rape or DV. And that's how they win the sympathies of the audience - and make you look like the villain.

Whatever you do, choose your frame, study it, and try stick to it, come back to it with a different angle. But that you probably already knew. These discussions, in my experience, are not won with facts, though, but with feelings.

OkLetterhead10 · 2020-12-16T11:55:57+00:00

For more information read this: https://www.instagram.com/thetinmen/?hl=fr

mhandanna · 2020-12-16T15:10:56+00:00

THIS WEBSITE IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW

https://becauseits2015.wordpress.com/2016/08/06/a-non-feminist-faq/

EXCELLENT. It also is in FAQ format, so will be questions likely asked

biff64gc · 2020-12-16T16:18:19+00:00

What's your overall opinion on the four waves of feminism, especially modern feminism?

Not overly familiar with the different terms of feminism, but current modern feminism I believe is doing more harm than good. It seems to fall into two categories. They either truly believe the US is a patriarchy that oppresses women or they believe equal numbers means equality has been achieved. The problem with both stances is if their assumpstions are wrong then you create worse problems and actually push us further away from equality.

So are their assumptions wrong? I'd say yes. There's no law in this country that sates women can't do X. There may be some social sexism that works against them in specific areas, but both genders actually have to deal with that (more on that in the next section.

Also having the same numbers doesn't mean things are equal. If a guy with a 4 year degree is passed up for a position by a female with a 2 year degree just because she's female, but the company wanted another female for equal representation, the guy is going to resent her more and the company won't perform as well having a less qualified person in that position.

True equality is ensuring equal access to opportunity, something I think modern feminism ignores everywhere. Women get more scholarships, more choices, and more social/government support than guys already, yet it doesn't seem to be enough for them.

Do you feel that men are oppressed or treated unfairly in today's society? If so, why?

Overall I'd argue no, but I'd also argue women are not oppressed either. There are specific instances for both sexes, however, where a specific sex faces oppression that the other doesn't experience to the same degree in a given area of life.

Men are treated as untouchable. So when a guy faces issues like sexual assault, abuse, or mental health problems they are ignored, because we are guys and stuff like that doesn't (shouldn't) bother us. The 80% suicide rate for guys shows that's obviously not true.

Then there's the more obvious issues such as male circumcision being legal while female isn't, prison sentences being longer with guys for the same crime, needing to sign up for draft to get right to vote, and parental rights (females can get abortions to terminate their obligation to a child, but a guy is dependent on the mother's decision).

Note I'm not saying a guy should have a say in if a female should get an abortion, but if a guy finds out he's going to be a dad he should be able to sign away all rights and responsibilities, no questions asked.

Finally it's not uncommon for a guy to be assumed a criminal or a pedophile. When an accusation is made against a guy he can have his life torn apart even when he is found innocent. Feminists like to point to big court cases of guys getting away with horrible things, but ALL of those cases involved someone with money and political pull, something that doesn't come into play for 99% of guys.

This also impacts specific careers where guys are not trusted to take proper care of the elderly or children, similar to how women aren't trusted to be good engineers or CEO's in some areas.

Do you think feminists do enough to help men?

No. They claim to be fighting for men's rights as well, but their actions are focused purely on curbing male behavior where it effects them (aggression or sexualization).

You won't see a feminists fighting for a dad's parental rights, getting support to guy's mental health, getting homeless guys off the street, getting guys into abuse shelters, the abuse of divorce courts on male assets and child custody, etc...

In fact frequently when guys try to open up about these issues and start a conversation they are quickly shut down by feminists claiming men are trying to take resources away from their issues or these male issues aren't as big of a deal as the female ones and for us to sit down and shut up.

What would your perfect society look like between men and women? What laws/ practices would be created/abolished?

Pretty close to what we have, but every law should be written as gender neutral and gender stereotypes on BOTH sides wouldn't exist.

Novitschok · 2020-12-16T20:01:57+00:00

Would you post a summary of the discussion? Would be super interesting to see how that played out :)

Intelligent-Plastic3 · 2020-12-16T08:54:04+00:00

I think the prior waves of feminism were helpful and necessary. They brought true reform to society and showcased the strength and independence of women. Modern feminism, however, is a sickness in my eyes. It has divided men and women more than we were when the newest wave began. Most of the problems it deals with have to do with women complaining about men being the only cause of their problems but not actually realizing and facing the true causes and issues that both men and women face.
I do feel that men are treated unfairly and are oppressed in modern societies. As fathers we are seen as less important than mothers. Being a soldier is often compared to a woman’s choice to become a stripper. In divorces we lose custody or lose a massive amount of property in about 80% of cases. Women often can hit, kick, punch, slap, or abuse men in any way without repercussion through law or in the public eye. In fact many are praised as “queens” for having done so. Men’s mental health and societal issues are blamed on the patriarchy even though it is women who are the cause for the majority of these issues.
No. Feminism, in its current wave at least, is all about women. Not all that surprising with a name that starts with “Fem-.” Many feminists focus on women’s issues only and berate men for expressing the issues they have.
In my perfect society men and women would be equal based on circumstance. For instance if a man was paid more than a woman it’d have to be solely based on his experience, quality of work, educations, etc. these criteria would be the same for women. In said society I’d hope that gender equality would be so well implemented that it isn’t even a thought. That the phrase is completely forgotten because gender inequality is such a foreign concept.

manumiss1on · 2020-12-16T13:28:09+00:00

As another poster said, it is best to watch the red pill documentary for an overview of the MRM

For some issues men face:

https://archive.is/YrcRT

https://archive.is/M055S

https://archive.is/YBMt3

https://archive.is/ftpur

https://www.reddit.com/r/Egalitarianism/comments/i3valw/if_someone_tells_you_we_live_in_a_patriarchy_show/

Feminism vs men's issues

https://check-your-privilege-feminists.tumblr.com/post/95979451581/i-dont-understand-how-are-you-not-a-feminist

http://www.debunker.com/patriarchy.html

https://archive.is/YrcRT

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9v6tqj/a_list_about_feminism_misandry_for_anyone_who/

https://web.archive.org/web/20200606122506/https://pastebin.com/KTMTZ4f1

Debunking feminist propaganda

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/83qmqa/a_great_post_that_expose_a_lot_of_feminists_lies/ - this also has a list of feminists harassing dissenters and MRAs

https://givemeyourtired.tumblr.com/post/144910662913/can-you-please-give-me-5-real-reason-on-why-we

To answer your questions

1) All waves had strong elements of hatred of men, however the Suffragettes were not feminists.

There are disturbing similarities between modern radical feminism and Nazism.

This is not hyperbole - they use pseudoscience to claim that men are genetically inferior to women, that genocide against men is natural and desirable, use historical revisionism to claim that men conspired to oppress women and there was a golden age of female domination - exactly the same propaganda Nazis used against Jews.

Follow the @ feministfollies twitter account for unsettling examples of feminist hatred of men.

2) obviously, see the links above

3) feminist organizations and feminists in the establishment do absolutely nothing whatsoever to help men, and a lot to hurt us.

4) see above, but mostly

Default equal custody after separation, this would have a knock-on effect of fixing most other issues
Treat male genital mutilation the same as FGM
End the sentencing gap
End the education marking gap
End the health care funding gap

Title	Some Questions
Author	YourLocalWanker
Upvotes	16
Comments	20
Date	December 16, 2020 8:30 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ke5h3x/some_questions/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/some-questions.838190 https://theredarchive.com/post/838190

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