Toxic masculinity - Is it debunked?

EricAllonde · 2018-01-23T01:51:58+00:00

Just visit any feminist discussion online and count how often feminists talk about any other type of masculinity besides "toxic masculinity". You'll find it's almost never.

Some feminists don't care about the bad PR and will come right out and admit it:

"Toxic Masculinity" makes it sound like there is some other kind

It's clear that feminists think masculinity is toxic, and their constant use of the term reveals this fact.

eightgaydiamonds · 2018-01-23T01:24:11+00:00

"Toxic masculinity" is definitely hate speech. Im not saying it should be illegal. If anything is hate speech, this feminist screed is.

GreatBayTemple · 2018-01-23T14:36:05+00:00

It's such Bullshit.

ee4m · 2018-01-22T23:27:03+00:00

Old femra debate post here.

"Toxic masculinity" is often tossed around as an example of harmful or misguided feminist theory (commonly in a distorted, misinterpreted form) by MRAs. I was recently even told that the term is an insidious propaganda technique attempting to falsely associate men with negativity. In debating the issue I've started to research the term's history, with rather interesting results.

Most surprisingly, the phrase doesn't appear to have been developed as feminist theory. Rather, early sources that I've found using it (dating from the early to mid 90s) are all associated with men's movements and literature attempting to help men and boys overcome negative cultural issues. For example, Social Psychologist Frank S. Pittsman's book Man Enough: Fathers, Sons, and the Search for Masculinity (1993) suggests that toxic masculinity may be the result of an absent father (107). This isn't part of a feminist critique of patriarchy or anything of the sort; it's a male-centered exploration of how our culture is failing boys and what we might do to improve upon it.

A good deal of the early discussion of toxic masculinity comes from the Mythopoetic Men's Movement. The MMM wasn't explicitly anti-feminist, but it was reacting against what it saw as negative consequences of (among other things) second-wave feminism (or at least negative issues brought to light by it). Fearing that feminist emphasis on women's voices and problems was muting the voices of men and that men were without a positive, ritual way of developing and celebrating masculinity, the MMM saw men as emasculated and in crisis.

To the MMM, the current state of Western culture was preventing men from realizing a positive masculinity. This resulted in a harmful, distorted, competitive, and aggressive hyper-masculinity. Shepherd Bliss, who invented the term Mythopoetic Men's Movement, also seems responsible for the term "toxic masculinity." Shepherd contrasts this toxic masculinity to what he calls "deep masculinity," a more cooperative, positive form of masculinity which he seeks to recover. He lays this out at some length in response to pro-feminist criticisms of the MMM in the edited volume The Politics of Manhood: Pro-Feminist Men Respond to the Mythopoetic Men’s Movement (1995) (301-302).

So there's my contribution to Men's Mondays. Toxic masculinity was a term invented by men's activists (but not MRAs) to help address problems facing men that weren't explicitly being tackled by feminists. Obviously the term has been appropriated by feminists and is often employed within feminist theoretical frameworks, but let's maybe at least stop saying that it was created as feminist propaganda to denigrate men.

Finally, an open question to all who have a problem with the term "toxic masculinity" (either in some specific usages or in general):

Is it possible to salvage the original, positive intent of this term as a tool for helping men to overcome articulations of masculinity which harm them, and if so, what needs to be done to make that happen?

https://www.reddit.com/r/FeMRADebates/comments/1voxgf/toxic_masculinity_came_from_mens_activists_not/

Feminists today have appropriated the term and only use it on its own and without the positive counter part.

tiqr · 2018-01-22T22:55:02+00:00

Don't bring up Toxic Masculinity in this sub, because any discussion will be colored by how you define the term (and no one will bother defining it).

When a MRA sees Toxic Masculinity, they believe that it means that Masculinity itself it toxic. If you ask a tumblr feminist, you will likely get the same answer.

My understanding of the term is that it refers to elements of masculinity which are toxic to both men, women, and society as a whole - primarily:

Dominance
Excessive Self-Reliance
Emotional Stoicism

"Being a man" generally means accepting some or all of these ideas into your identity. But there's nothing that says being manly requires that you have no emotions other than anger. There's nothing that says real men can't ask for help when they are overwhelmed.

No one here will argue that men need to be allowed to be vulnerable, and to be allowed to get help - they just don't like the term "Toxic Masculinity" because its sounds pejorative (which it isn't, but it definitely sounds pejorative).

thrway_1000 · 2018-01-22T22:52:24+00:00

Toxic Masculinity is just feminist hate speech. None of the traits are "masculine" they're just human traits. Also, where are you going to get academic material when feminism has contaminated academia to the point where any thoughts that don't bow to feminist theory are held as evil and can't be discussed.

Fortspucking · 2018-01-23T00:28:13+00:00

The term started out as a wiseass way to refer to the negative facets of masculinity and somehow grew into a concept that is too often applied to masculinity as a whole. It's insulting.

elonsbattery · 2018-01-23T02:15:35+00:00

I think having a stand alone lecture on ‘toxic masculinity’ is a problem. It needs context. Maybe a lecture on ‘gender problems’ that looks at how both excessive feminine or masculine traits can cause issues.

Or maybe expanding about why these traits have manifested. For example, being stoic has many advantages, especially in emergency situations. And being aggressive is essential in high powered business, or elite sport.

Title	Toxic masculinity - Is it debunked?
Author	Ashton187
Upvotes	0
Comments	17
Date	January 22, 2018 10:41 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7s9plo/toxic_masculinity_is_it_debunked/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity-is-it-debunked.1179934 https://theredarchive.com/post/1179934

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