What can I do differently?

EvilPundit · 2014-03-30T22:57:18+00:00

You're doing exactly what you should be.

People on reddit mostly vote depending on whether or not they agree with your point of view. Depending on which subreddit you're in, and the time of day, you coule be either upvoted or downvoted for saying exactly the same thing.

The most important thing to remember is that it doesn't matter whether people agree with you or not.

There are ten voters for every one who comments, and ten silent readers for every voter. You should aimto persuade these people by being rational, reasonable - and persistent.

The downvoters want you to shut up. Don't give them what they want.

TheWheatOne · 2014-03-30T23:24:36+00:00

Its kinda just apathy. Those who care about men are rare, those who don't care are the standard, and those who hate them, or at least, who think men don't deserve to be labelled as victims in any fashion at all, are numerous.

Its also popular to hate more than love; people like to put others down more than uplift them as a whole. I won't get into why, but its why most things, even the most upvoted ones on reddit, when you see how many downvotes there are, you'll see the truth, at least here.

rightsbot · 2014-03-30T22:36:16+00:00

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VortexCortex · 2014-03-31T12:30:55+00:00

But is it really just that people are THAT unwilling to hear about men's issues at all?

Yes. There are reasons why they fail to acknowledge the label "Feminist" condones the behaviors of evil feminists that actually matter. It's the man-hating feminists that actually matter, and can affect our laws and public policy, that are being called "fringe" feminists.

Unfortunately Feminism is mostly composed of useful-fools who lend political power to a movement they know nothing about. Those who aren't misandrists are victims of psychological warfare. They accept "Feminism = Equality" and other easy-to-believe-lies like the Hitler Youths who believed Nazi "us/them" propaganda without doing any of their own research outside the ideology. See also: in-group bias

Humans have tendency to side with the group decisions even if the choice is clearly wrong. I've read a study where folks told to pick the shortest bar out of a set consistently pick the obviously wrong bar when in a group who is secretly instructed to make the wrong selection prior to the subject's selection. It's also more difficult to decide towards more investment, like rejecting your beliefs. Most people are slaves to bias.

Once someone makes a decision, they defend their choices. If you say they're not supporting something good, the "lizard brain" kicks in, decides fight or flight, and causes confirmation bias when presented with evidence contrary to their stance. If you are too confrontational they will blindly fight everything you present as you back them into a corner or they'll fly away, licking their wounds and cursing the "misogynistic MRA" who hurt their feelings.

There is little you can do to cause the primitive minded to think rationally. Social Justice Warriors have both social and biological defenses against reason.

The greatest villainy is done under the umbrella of saving the world. So, I require evidence for my beliefs. I actively seek to disprove my beliefs to strengthen them or destroy them if found lacking; Feminists don't. They are either ignorant of feminism or simply don't tend to think rationally. If they did think rationally they would not be feminists. When you expose a rational person to enough feminism they become anti-feminists and/or MRAs.

Eg: Women's Rights can exist without Feminism, but the foolish believe the two are the same. "If you believe in equality, you're a Feminist", "If you believe in being kind, You're a Christian", "If you believe in individuality, you're a Satanist!", "If you believe in racial equality, You're a KKK member." <- Can't feminists find the flaw in this logic? Can't other people believe in kindness and individuality and equality than those of particular ideologies? Trick questions, they don't use logic. The first one "feels" right, so they believe it: "But that's what Feminism IS about!" You can't disprove feelings, this is your lesson to learn. Instead, say, "you mean well, but you're helping [bad person] do [evil]", and cite it.

how do we even make progress on getting people to listen to us?

Keep showing them examples of feminists acting against mens rights. They are being duped into supporting a movement that is really about political clout, marginalizing men, and helping women on the side. Convincing them of this is tricky because you have to do so while NOT saying they are willfully the cause. The identity politics of solidarity is a wicked tool, but there are obvious cracks in the armor.

Note: The biggest problem with humans in general is that they don't teach children to hone their inaccurate instinctual thoughts via internal analysis. Instead you teach them to dismiss their feelings as irrational, "Don't be scared of the dark, there's nothing in the closet see?" but you're rightly ignored by kids. The fear is real, it serves a purpose, and they'll quest for the cause to explain the fear and blame boogie-men if you're too ignorant to give them the answer they need for existence of their feelings. This is the crux of most human problems. See also: Turrrizm! and other scaremongering for evil ends. "Feelz! Why?!" "Here, [reason]." <- use this for good, not evil.

Let me show you: SJWs say, "Women shouldn't have to be scared of walking the streets at night!" Rational "thinkers" say, "Those feelings are irrational, you're not considering the data and environment or making responsible informed decisions." Instead of thinking with only half their fool heads both of these types could realize we will never be able to make people feel safe at night unless we lobotomize them: "I feel scared of predators at night because my ancestors' emotions are reminding me to seek shelter, light, safety in numbers, and be aware of my surroundings because my vision is limited. Thanks for helping me stay safe, ancestors." However, you can't rid their fear, so diffuse it by directing them away from blame and misandry, and towards solution and equality: "Yeah, the dark streets are scary, but posters can't protect us! Let's fund self defense courses to help save men and women." Emotion + Logic.

Now do you see? Feminism is brilliantly leveraging an emotional call to action to fund actions for situations that can not be fixed. If you don't combat this with similar but non-deceptive persuasion, then they win because they're using BOTH feelings and some (flawed) rationality (it's not right to attack people). If you're thinking with half your head and only debunk illogical BS, they fall back to feelings, and you fail to persuade them.

Convincing someone to harness and hone both primitive and modern parts of their brains requires awareness. They may be too "high-minded" and chauvinistic later in life to re-learn how to think, so teach your kids well. This is also why feminism is so against evo-psych & neurology. We're dealing with pre-made minds so show how dangerous their continued actions may be. SJWs may change but only if acknowledging and changing behavior hurts their feelings less than the pain they feel the behavior will cause others. Remember who you are dealing with, and approach the issue by 'reasoning' with both the ancient and modern parts of the mind. "You don't want to be hated as a radical feminist, everyone likes egalitarians and humanists. We could be friends if you fought for Women's Rights without the hateful baggage of feminism."

If you only "Fuck Their Shit Up" then you fail at persuasion. That gets new members who see hypocrisy as flawed; It does not convince feminists that they need to drop the ideology and become Womens Rights Activists. To be fair, the latter chore is nearly impossible.

Victor Zen did a video addressing this NAFALT argument, so too have others like GWW. They both use a broad selection of factual and logical reasoning without concentrating on hammering in a few repeated examples that appeal both emotionally and rationally; They also call for feminist accountability, how quaint. Hence they are flatly ignored by most feminists. Also, if it's over 10 minutes long, feminists won't hear a damn thing said. Give them something to chew in chunks rather than an array of issues to check for themselves or they'll flatly ignore it, esp. if there's just one thing they strongly disagree with therein. See also: claiming Warren Farrell is a rape apologist. Don't carpet bomb them into hiding, use surgical strikes on their emotions and short controlled bursts of logic.

The acknowledgement that the "fringe" radical feminists are "others" not like them is your strongest wedge. Next show them how it is these undesirable others, not themselves, that are the ones in control of the movement who benefit by their buying books, making donations and paying for women's studies courses. Being a "feminist" suggests others do the same. Use examples that invoke sympathy; Which unfortunately means, things that affect boys, or transgender folks, since the SJW is pre-trained to associate men with enemy.

The goal is to drive in the wedge between themselves and the radical others, then show that they're still firmly connected by the roots and thus keep the other side alive, so it would be best to branch out and leave feminism altogether. "Feminism is just a label, why not use egalitarianism?" Some history lessons can help too. Once they're not identifying with feminists then they'll be your best ally! They'll know the BS inside and out, and leverage the same emotional appeals that worked on them against other SJW victims of psychological warfare.

While SJWs say men's issues exist and shouldn't be marginalized, they don't believe that strongly enough to do anything, it just feels good to say it. Try to yank their heart strings so hard they sob for men and boys along with the girls and women. It's not a task for the feint of heart. Reasoning with the primarily emotionally minded works far better in person than on the impersonal Internet for obvious reasons.

If they have brothers or male children instill the very real fear of the dire situation the ones they love face thanks to feminism.

Why?

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

StoicSophist · 2014-03-30T23:09:39+00:00

but eventually I ran into someone claiming that women face 99 times more problems than men

That's not what it says. It says that 99% of the time women are at a disadvantage to men. It says nothing about the level of disadvantage.

Title	What can I do differently?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	20
Comments	11
Date	March 30, 2014 10:34 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/21s3y6/what-can-i-do-differently/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-can-i-do-differently.1615856 https://theredarchive.com/post/1615856

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