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X-Post r/science: "Couples, especially those in the working-class, are afraid to get married because of worries about divorce and lack of an upside."

EvilPundit

December 19, 2011

39 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-12-young-couples-arent-ravages.html

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Post Information

Title	X-Post r/science: "Couples, especially those in the working-class, are afraid to get married because of worries about divorce and lack of an upside."
Author	EvilPundit
Upvotes	39
Comments	33
Date	December 19, 2011 6:13 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/nipyi/xpost_rscience_couples_especially_those_in_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/x-post-rscience-couples-especially-those-in-the.1030333 https://theredarchive.com/post/1030333

Comments

[–]misseff 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bobsutan 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]carchamp1 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]carchamp1 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

There's an interesting discussion of the benefits of marriage in the discussion thread. For example, I'm probably going to have health insurance through my company before my boyfriend(I work at a large company, he works at a local small company), and it would be smart to get married so he can be covered, which we'd otherwise be unable to afford. Someone also mentioned in the discussion that filing taxes together can actually end up being beneficial if there is a big difference in income(combined tax rate may be lower than individual). I was just discussing with him the other night how I don't see a real benefit to marriage, but looking at these two things and the practical impact it could have on one's life, it does seem worth it in some situations, no?

I think in most cases you can tell when a woman is set on marriage for the wrong reasons... on some of the mostly female forums I frequent I can tell from a forum post how nuts some of them are when it comes to their reasons for wanting to get married. Makes me question why their boyfriends/fiances don't catch on and run like the wind. But not every woman who is interested in marriage is looking for a pay day.

[–]carchamp1 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]misseff -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I have a hard time accepting your assertion that it's all to benefit women, probably because that is not my reality. What you're saying is not a fact, it's a generalization. I hope that doesn't offend you, but there's a big difference between your opinion of marriage and what marriage is. My situation certainly isn't unique, and I definitely do not need any of my boyfriend's property, and I wouldn't need spousal support etc. in the future should we get married and then part ways. I'm also not interested in having children. There are more and more women like me now. So what you're saying may have been the case in the past when housewives were the norm, but that has changed a lot over the past few decades. All men are not the "breadwinning man" you refer to, and all women are certainly not housewives.

Additionally, if you read up on the history of marriage, it was never meant to benefit women. Marriage for love is a relatively new invention, and typically marriages were arranged out of convenience, and many ended up marrying within their own family. For example, if I have a certain skill, let's say farming(bit general, but you get what I mean), I might marry my cousin because he is the only one who knows how to tend the family farm with me, so it only makes sense. That partnership would benefit us, our family, and our village as we'd be able to successfully grow our crops, keep our animals healthy, etc. I would argue that it was not historically about benefiting women, so much as it was about forming partnerships that just made sense.

[–]carchamp1 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't ever get offended.

You are wrong about marriage. Modern legal marriage has NOTHING to do with love. What you're talking about is conventional wisdom. People might "fall in love" and get married, but that marriage license has nothing to do with romance. "Married" is a legal status that is really (I'm not kidding) designed to enhance the welfare of women.

Do yourself a favor and read at least the intro and first chapter of "Wives Without Husbands" by Anna Igra. You can do this online. She does a good job of going back about a century and explaining modern marital welfare.

Given the situation you describe in the first paragraph marriage really would mean nothing to you. I should warn you though that except for the not wanting children part, you sound just like my wife did 20 years ago. She has worked just a few years out of the last 17 and has hardly made any money. The lure of being taken care of by your husband in "holy matrimony" is pretty damned intoxicating. Have you ever wondered how American women can have the highest standard of living in the history of the world when they only make 70% of the income as men?

[–]misseff 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

"Married" is a legal status that is really (I'm not kidding) designed to enhance the welfare of women.

I'm really not seeing that, but definitely open to reading anything that supports it, so I will definitely check out what you mentioned by Anna Igra.

I'm sorry about your wife, that sounds really shitty. I honestly don't think I could live with myself if I just mooched off someone else, husband or not. I've always felt guilty about getting pretty much anything from anyone, even if I deserve it, but that's probably because of how I was raised... so I don't think I have too much to worry about in that regard.

Have you ever wondered how American women can have the highest standard of living in the history of the world when they only make 70% of the income as men?

What do you mean by this? Is there a huge difference between the standard of living for men vs. women? I tried googling this and all I found was that a woman's standard of living is likely to decrease after divorce, but the opposite is true for men.

[–]carchamp1 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. I can't go into it now, but look at every aspect of life and you'll see that women enjoy a much higher standard of living than men in the US. This is all documented inside r/mr.

I'm not just talking about divorced couples. I'm talking about married couples too. But, I've heard that whole thing about divorce. It's laughable. I've never known a man's standard of living to increase post-divorce. Unless you call the two guys who killed themselves an increase in standard of "living". For the women it has been a mixed bag. What is for certain is that the man's standard of living has always fallen further. Men pay 90% plus of all alimony, child support. They lose a higher percentage of their retirement plans. They end up with less of the marital property, including the family home much of the time. Yes, a woman's standard of living is likely to go down upon divorce. For men it always goes down. If you end up divorce to a forty-something year old housewife, in many states, you are likely her slave for the rest of your life.

[–]Celda 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]carchamp1 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]carchamp1 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]misseff 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]carchamp1 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Maschalismos 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]carchamp1 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

One, my experience is that most women become more and more dependent as the marriage goes on. Why? Well, once they realize they have their man by the balls they can relax and ease up. (this is without a doubt the biggest reason behind the so-called "pay gap") It's human nature - I don't think this is a female trait. "Family" law just makes it this way. So, to me, it doesn't matter one bit how independent the girlfriend is, you shouldn't marry her.

Re: warning signs, you are so right. I cringe every time I see someone blame some poor schmuck for getting taken in a divorce. "You picked her" they say. The reality is we ALL ignore "warning" signs. The truth is no one is perfect, nor our perfect match so we compromise. The problem is not that people pick the wrong mate. The problem is the dire consequences usually reserved for men for picking the "wrong" mate.

[–]misseff 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]carchamp1 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When you really get down to it, modern legal marriage is really a two-person commune (yes, as in communism). It doesn't matter who does what, the wealth and income of the couple gets "shared".

Back in the day when I was very young, the sixties, hippie communes were popping up quite a bit. Everyone went into these with the best of intentions - they would all be "equal" partners and the communes would flourish. What really happened was as time went on fewer and fewer people were actually doing the work required to keep the communes going, until the workers left and the commune collapsed.

There was just no incentive for people to work since everyone got the same benefits of the commune. This is why virtually all forms of communism died out rather quickly. Pretty much the only true communes left are modern legal marriages. (note that China is not based on economic communism)

So you don't think you'd turn out like that? (note that the following is not an attempt to bash you or women in general - the following is human nature at work) My wife argued at length with our pastor to have a certain vow removed from our wedding service - the one where I would promise to take care of her. She got her way. BUT, guess what, I'm taking care of her. Despite ten years of higher education (four years of which I paid for) she couldn't even house and feed herself with her earnings. Why? She doesn't have to. I have to take care of her.

[–]EvilPundit[S] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]jady1971 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]palpatinus -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link