Parenting

sea-tease · 2022-06-10T12:56:02+00:00

I've read this book. It has good points but like nearly every Christian book, it largely misses foundational advice for young men - becoming an attractive, congruent HVM. This post touches one of my biggest passions so I'll give a couple thoughts...

Obviously the first step is to make yourself a good example, and model

No. This can become a projection of 'should' incongruent to your own frame. (I wrote a post on MRP called 'Should, Shouldn't and What do you want? - check that out). I don't model, lead or project. I am (have become-always working on) a congruent me. The version of me I built. In that congruence and space my boys (3 ages 20, 15 and 13) are drawn to me and look to me for direction in life and spiritual direction as well. Nuanced yes, but my dad tried to 'model' but I picked up the incongruence as a kid.

We are all doomed to be imperfect

I simply refuse to entertain this because it is irrelevant. It's true, sure, but that is a weak message to keep at the forefront of your mind. Kids don't even look for perfection. I'll get to that later.

There is a natural inclination for a son to rebel against his father to a certain degree

I have not experienced this at all with my kids. It is not true. Kids will rebel when their needs are not met and will test you for boundaries, but not rebel just to rebel.

I have found that kids are really not a lot different than women in what they need (I also wrote a post on this at MRP called Parrallels last year). They primarily need Time, Attention, Boundaries and to know that they are Valued - best if it is from a congruent HVM. Working on becoming the best version of me was paramount. Now, I really wanted to have rich relationships with them so my desire was genuine and they know.

I'm also realizing the gravity of my responsibility in preparing my son to become a man.

Maybe, but you also don't need to make this as serious as this sentence is written. My boys are literally a reflection of me. They have taken interest in nearly everything I'm into while cultivating their own interests. This has happened mostly through action as they are younger but more through conversations when older.

As far as the book goes, it hit a couple good points like rejecting passivity and accepting responsibility but it was written in a beta, nice guy, covert contract fashion. The part of a woman to love was pure blue pill bs. Very 'noble-ish.' There of course was nothing about being attractive, not unattractive, being physically fit, building frame, owning your sexuality and understanding nature of women...

I did none of the things outlined in that book but fathered with the intent of relationship and boundaries. Fun and respect. They always knew I was on their side even when I had to draw boundaries. They also see how I interact with my wife, how I lead and her genuine submission in response. They see my social life, my business productivity and how I own my responsibility. You can't teach these without being this man.

My oldest who has moved out calls me once every month or two to get my feedback on his life direction and relationship advice with his girlfriend. How great is that? I am now able to share RP truths about masculinity with him and how it aligns with God's design. I have that opportunity because I laid the groundwork - genuinely - as they were young and increasingly as they grew.

Becoming a HVM has given me the tools to share with him how the world works and give him direction on how to build his best version of himself. I am hopeful this will happen with my younger two also and from what I am seeing now, this will be the case.

Great that you are exploring this but I don't know how old you are or how many kids you have and their age?

Deep_Strength · 2022-06-10T14:37:04+00:00

I don't really get your list here.

We are all doomed to be imperfect

Even if we were, perfection doesn't necessarily inspire patterning behavior

We are all wired differently

There is a natural inclination for a son to rebel against his father to a certain degree

That's why Jesus didn't teach his disciples because they were doomed to be imperfect unlike Him, and Jesus' perfection didn't inspire patterning behavior to show the disciples how to live... oh wait. Actually He did and the disciples believed to the point that all but John were martyred for their faith. An amazing example.

There were fishermen, tax collectors, zealots, and all sorts of other men that Jesus chose to be disciples as well. Lots of different types of men and professions. Does a martial arts school (or any other discipline) kick out students because they are wired to differently? No, they change the teaching style to a method that they understand and can apply.

Rejects Passivity, Accepts Responsibility, Leads Courageously, Expects the Greater Reward

These are outflows from identity but not part of it.

Our identity in Christ is paramount. Jesus is clearly a very good example. Anything He did He was always focused on being in line with His Father's will and mission for Him. The core of His identity was that He was One with God and doing what God put Him here to do.

Everything else flowed from that. The preaching, the teaching, the healing, the rebukes, taking the initiative, acting responsibly, discipling others, and even to do things that He did not necessarily want to do eventually like die for us.

So many people get wrapped up in the world and their identity becomes what they do or what they are good at whether it's sports, school, their job, women, or whatever. These things ultimately have no meaning without God.

Code of conduct and ceremonies

These ultimately flow out of identity as well. Once one accepts Christ and repents of their sins, they are baptized (ceremony) and take communion regularly (ceremony). They also now associated with Christ (called Christians) and have a code of conduct to become more like Christ.

The things you mentioned in this post are not bad things, but they are incompletely without stressing that everything flows from one's identity in Christ. If you can impart this foundation to your children and teach and explain these things then they'll be in much better shape to understand things.

This is also why most people recommend John's gospel be read first. While the synoptics (Matthew, Mark, Luke) are more everyday-like stories about Christ that we can learn from and appreciated, John is focused on Who God Is and What Jesus' Mission Was... and how this translated to us as Christians on who we are and how to live. If we don't understand God's heart then we are easily led astray into legalism and other false paths like many in the Church today.

Pupusero36EE · 2022-06-10T08:46:49+00:00

I like what you mean, I am not a father at the moment, but the Red Pill surely has given me enough food for thought.

I think that the best you can do is teaching your children to respect God. This has to be done properly, as just reading stories will not help them too much past a certain age. Telling them "ask God to show himself to you" is the best advice you can give him, as every single human has a different relationship with him. Many ""ex-christians"" were never truly christians, as the moment a man/woman truly realizes the existence of God by his own will and understanding, he for sure will never change his beliefs.

Also letting them know that the world is imperfect (red pilling them) so our life, love and emotions are not a fairy tale, thankfuly I learned this in my early years and I know a lot of people would have loved to learn it early in their life to. Both males and females need to understand that we have a role and different expectations in relationships, but it is what makes life so enjoyable and unique.

Red-Curious · 2022-06-14T21:51:38+00:00

I like this post and it's a worthy topic. Here are some thoughts:

Modeling Does Work

I think you dismiss this too quickly. Let's take a look at your excuses.

We are all doomed to be imperfect

If that's the case, then all techniques will be imperfect and are to be equally embraced or thrown out with modeling.

Even if we were, perfection doesn't necessarily inspire patterning behavior

I don't see how this connects. Your argument is why modeling won't work, not why being perfect won't work. There's a difference between BEING a great example and MODELING a great example. A dad who is a great example to his kids, but makes no effort to expose his children to his lifestyle or show them how to live it alongside him is not modeling. He may be a great guy, but it doesn't mean squat if he isn't actively modeling it in a way that his kids can receive and follow. This is the difference between being a passively-"good" parent and discipling your children.

We are all wired differently

I agree that there will be different personality styles, ranges of interest, etc. that will deviate from person to person. But are you really going to try to argue that men can only have one or two Myers-Briggs personality types, and that if you're interested in Broadway musicals you can't be a real/godly man? (as I write this from a hotel on Broadway about to leave for a musical). One of the reasons I ham up my love of musicals with RP guys is to emphasize that one can have a great marriage, bear spiritual fruit, have a good sex life, and - yes - even raise wonderful children while having interests that deviate from typical "masculinity" things, like football and poker. Do my kids need to share these interests? Nope. If my son turns out to love watching football, I will cringe inside, but fully support that. If he has other interests he can still be "masculine" by all biblical contexts and have all the things in life God designed for him.

There is a natural inclination for a son to rebel against his father to a certain degree

There's also a natural inclination for children to become their parents. Rebellion against a father-figure usually happens when the father figure is total trash or absent, giving no respect. But the cliche that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" is more common in the long-term than a lifetime of rebellion. Short-term rebellion, we're on the same page. In those teenage years, sons will always go off the rails for a bit. But they'll circle back in the vast majority of cases.

In short, I'm not persuaded that actual, active modeling (i.e. discipling your children) is anything short of the absolute most effective approach to parenting. I challenge anyone who disagrees with me to come spend a week with me and my kids (ages 5, 7, 8, and 10). I believe what you're arguing against is passive-existing as a "good person," which is not modeling.

Discipling your children is and always will be the best way to go.

Responding to the Rest

Now, for the advice you're giving ...

Reject passivity

I agree 100%, but I think the verse you cite is off-base. While Romans 12:1-2 is solid in its own context, that has nothing to do with rejecting passivity, though I understand that you may be defining passivity as conformance with the world. But a guy could also (and in these parts often does) reject conformity to the world while still being quite ungodly. And there are many men who are "godly" in the sense of their rejection of worldly immoralities, but who are still passive in how they express or apply them.

I'd suggest passages like Ephesians 5:16 and Colossians 4:5, which compel us to make the most of every opportunity. Or Matthew 6:33 which says we should "seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness" rather than passively avoiding bad things in life. Or there's the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20), or Colossians 13's attributes of love (all action words are ascribed to "love is," whereas all the "love is not" words are emotions we passively experience), and so on.

The key here is that rejecting passivity isn't merely about avoiding conformity to the world. It also means adopting PROACTIVE things God intends for us to do. Most people go through life doing whatever is easiest or feels good, but when something "bad" comes up they think, "Ah ha! That's the thing God told me not to do, so I'm not gonna do it," then pat themselves on the back for being so "godly." In the meantime, they walked by countless people who need the Gospel and made zero effort to connect with them, and they haven't discipled a single person in the last decade ... but because they read their Bible in their own private home for a few minutes it's all good?

Accept responsibility

Again, I 100% agree, but 1 Cor. 16:13 doesn't seem to say anything about responsibility. Other good virtues, sure. But responsibility? Not in there. I'd look more at passages like:

Galatians 6:5 - For each will have to bear his own load.
1 Timothy 5:8 - But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for the members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbelievers.
1 Corinthians 3:8 - He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.
And if you really want to go parental: Proverbs 22:6 - Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

These are all passages on embracing and utilizing responsibility if we want to achieve a desired end. And that's just the thing: responsibility does not exist in a vacuum. Some people like to say that just by being a man means you have responsibility. No. You have responsibility parallel with the outcomes you want to receive in life and the lives of others who you rope into your framework and mission along the way.

Leads courageously

Again, solid premise, but the verse doesn't speak to courage. It speaks to being godly. But something like Joshua 1:9 or Deuteronomy 31:6 would make more sense, which speak more to courage itself - and specifically to leaders of God's people. Who of God's people are you leading? If you're ONLY leading your family, you're a coward and have no ability to life-model for your family how they ought to make disciples outside the home if you're not doing it in your own life. It's easy to say, "I'm courageous because I said 'no' to my wife, and that was scary!" Ooooooh. Good for you. Now go do something outside the home that actually takes balls.

Expects the greater reward

I'll embrace this one as-written.

What would you add to that?

There are, of course, other attributes of biblical masculinity that you're leaving off. I'll defer to other commenters for a longer list. I understand that's a bigger topic in itself, so I'm limiting my assessment here just to the things you actually wrote about - not the ones you didn't. /u/Deep_Strength usually has good thoughts on this subject already anyway.

A code of conduct

I'm not a fan of this approach. More rules seems to result in more rebellion. I get that it's cool to have a "code" - like Barney from How I Met Your Mother having the "Bro Code" that talks about ways men should act, or Dexter having his "code" of only killing evil people that his father instilled in him. There is some value to these in niche situations. But on the whole, adding more rules is contrary to the message of Christ. He came to bring freedom from the constraints of the law, not to add to it. Why should we parent differently from Christ? Instead of giving us a new "code" to replace the OT law, he gave us his Spirit. That Spirit is now what guides us. A father can also instill his spirit to his sun, just the same way that Elijah gave a "double portion" of his spirit to Elisha when he knew Elijah was about to pass (2 Kings 2). This is a MUCH better approach than creating a "code" of additional rules you think men must follow. At some point your son will think (and rightfully so): "That's a silly rule to have as part of the 'code.' I don't want to do that one," and then he'll question the whole thing, and when he realizes how arbitrary you've been with how you raised him, that will be his grounds for rebelling against you. Don't give him a code. Give him your spirit.

Ceremonies

I've heard this concept before. John Eldridge was a big advocate for ceremonies and "rites of passage" in a boy's life. I haven't made up my mind on them yet. I don't know how useful "ceremony" has ever been in God's Kingdom (in fact: I know it has killed much of God's earthly kingdom, the Church), but I do some value for them on an individual level. This concept more comes from the chivalrous "knighthood" days (so I'm not surprised your book on knighthood mentions it). I think if people want to have it, go for it. You won't do your son harm, unless you orient his life around the ceremony (achieving it, or something more ongoing), which would be destructive.

Instead, "rites of passage" are more useful. These are situations when a boy has to experience something new in order to usher into a new phase of life. For me, these always come with clear conversations: the sex talk before the schools started talking about it, for one. Another is when my son started staying home alone for short times, and the conversations revolving around that. Another was when his sister was getting bullied in school, and conversations we had about his role in helping to protect her, which was something he wasn't age-appropriate to do when he was, say, 5 and she was 3. These types of new life phases are things that require unique attention. If you want to use a ceremony, your call. I'm fine with a clear conversation and check-in process on how things go with the topic-at-hand as we go along.

I know it looks like I tore your post apart, but I really did enjoy the read and am glad you brought up the topic. Good work, brother.

WhereProgressIsMade · 2022-06-17T01:14:16+00:00

It’s been interesting for me with a 14 year old daughter and 12 year old son.

I didn’t do things perfectly but did pretty well with leading when dating and the first years of my marriage (15 years). I slowly got a bit lazy though and finally buckled down 2 years ago when I found this sub. So my kids watched me get a barbell and rack and go from obese to fit over a year. They responded pretty well too for other changes I made like teaching them discipleship and doing as they’re asked for chores. Still more progress to make but I hope they see my efforts and are inspired to keep in the path of sanctification and not get complacent.

I went through the Five Aspects Ministry book for teen girls with my daughter and it was reasonably sound. It was recommended on the askrpc sub. They came out with a version for young men too now so I got that to go through with my son.

I started my son lifting with me too when he’s in the off season for his sport.

Praexology · 2022-06-10T12:40:34+00:00

We are all doomed to be imperfect

Doesn't matter. 1 Cor. 11:1 Gives us the model for how we are to grow the spirituality of other people. We are only imitations but imitations are sufficient with the guiding hand of the holy spirit.

Even if we were, perfection doesn't necessarily inspire patterning behavior.

Irrelevant to the arguement, also untrue.

We are all wired differently.

We are more alike than different.

There is a natural inclination for a son to rebel against his father to a certain degree.

So?

A real man…

. . .

What would you add to that?

I like the points of this list, but it seems like you just conputer generated passages to slap onto those axioms.

Second, I like the idea of further developing that into a Code of Conduct. A way to . . . a bit more challenging to me to pen down though.

Are you looking for help with it? Or why did you post this?

Otherwise it just seems like you're trying to rehash something already largely concluded here.

"Raising a modern-day knight".

Have you seen what Robert Lewis looks like? If he were back in medieval times, he 100% would not be a knight, he would likely just be another priest speculating on how to raise a boy properly. All lf this stuff is intellectual masturbation - they think "If I'm a knight, then I'll get a princess." His website even prompts "Chivalry". I bet this guy rubs his wife's back in order to get laid.

strshp_enterprise · 2022-06-11T05:57:25+00:00

This might come as a shock to you… but healthy parenting figures will actually cross over into each other’s roles. Men will adopt the role of nurturer that is reserved for women and women will become assertive and strong.

This is actually biblical too. It was Rebecca that secured the birthright for Jacob. Esther and Mordecai essentially trade roles in a subversive story. There are probably more examples of this.

This has been confirmed with empirical research. It’s probably one of the strangest aspects of married life many couples actually end up enjoying!

Title	Parenting
Author	Strongearm
Upvotes	14
Comments	21
Date	June 10, 2022 7:00 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RPChristians
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/v91stz/parenting/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/parenting.1116568 https://theredarchive.com/post/1116568

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