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[–]AerobusTRP MOD11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He drinks 2 bottles of wine on a Friday night and 2 on a Saturday night.
I think this is alcoholism.
You're not going to be able to change this man. Please do not waste your years by trying to. Either accept this and love him, or move on.
[–]WhisperTRP Founder7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
This does sound like an issue.
However, men react badly to being leveraged or strong-armed. If you tell them what to do, they won't do it. If you nag them into it, they will resent you and give, at most, a half-hearted effort.
Makes the problem sound intractable, doesn't it?
But there's a way out. And that is the magic principle of Bring your man your problem, not your solution.
You don't tell him
"I want you to stop drinking."
That's bringing him your solution. That's telling him what to do.
You tell him:
"I am afraid you will drink yourself into an early grave and leave me all alone. I am afraid you will wrap your car around a tree and leave me all alone. I am afraid you will turn into a full-blown alcoholic and I won't be able to really connect with you anymore. I'm afraid you will drink more often and it'll kill off our sex life... it's already stopped us a lot."
This way, you're not strong-arming him or telling him what to do. You're not being adversarial. You're asking for his help, and reminding him that he is important to you.
You follow this up by refusing to tell him what to do. Even if he asks "what do you want?", you answer something like "I don't know, I'm just scared".
To you, this may seem incredibly selfish. Asking for something and not even telling the other person what it is? Just "figure it out"? Sounds awful, right?
But men are wired differently. What he hears isn't
"Figure out this problem and solve it for me."
What he hears is:
"I admire and trust you. I believe you'll come up with the right solution, and I know you're competent enough to do so. I just needed to tell you how I felt, so you could have all the information you needed to make a decision and a plan."
He may very well come up with the same solution you would have. But this time it's his idea, and he feels loved and admired, instead of nagged.
[–]aanarchist2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
that's exactly how you do it.
[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
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[–]WhisperTRP Founder3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It sounds like you are already doing the right thing, and have got him thinking about it.
Do be aware that if he is actually in the early stages of alcohol addiction, it's most likely not going to be this simple. Many people crawl into a bottle and never come out again.
The only advice I can give you about this is general:
I hope things turn out well for you.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Love him how he is or leave him now. You aren't married and don't share children.
[–]vegancigarette7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
First, I'm sorry you've made the discovery that your partner is suffering from alcoholism. I use that word because it's a disease, heavily stigmatized, but one nonetheless.
Drinking 1-2 bottles of wine in one sitting is not healthy, and the fact that he does this multiple nights a week is scary! He is doing major damage to his liver.
Appearing sober/normal after drinking a bottle or two of wine is ridiculous. That shows tolerance and I worry he is drinking even more when you're not around.
Remember, though, that this is a man in his 40s. You cannot change him and if alcoholism is a dealbreaker for you then you need to leave with your kids (you say "my kids" so I assume they aren't his?). Also I know this is harsh but why is this mid 40s man with a woman in her twenties with multiple kids? I really think you need to work on "screening" men better because the first relationship failed and now you are with this man who drinks like 6 bottles of wine a week.
I honestly wish you the best. Remember you cannot change him and it doesn't look like he will change himself. It's almost April and he's yet to start on his New Years resolution...
[–]fhigurethisout3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Men tend to drink way more than women and hold it better. So i think it can be shocking.
My partner is similar (Russian lol). Can drink lots and not even seem drunk. He's never been cruel. It's his choice and his health. Is this affecting you in any negative way, besides you hamstering about the future?
I know it can be worrying but you dont have any right to mommy him out of drinking. He made his choice. You can make yours (if it's a dealbreaker or not).
[–][deleted] 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[–]fhigurethisout0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Your concern could be telling you something. It is your choice if you want to live with this.I am not an expert on diagnosing alcoholism, but after rereading your post he does sound rather dependent on it.
[–]BeautifulSpaceCadet 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What is the line in drinking behaviour that makes you comfortable with your SO's drinking? Is it a concrete unit of measurement like "doesn't drink every day" or "doesn't drink excessive amounts"? Or is it something less quantifiable like "doesn't cause problems in his life or our relationship"? Because the last statement is true of my SO (I posted my own comment below), and that gives me piece of mind. But measuring it any concrete way and it's definitely not ideal and it does linger in my mind. If you could share your experience and why you're comfortable with it, I would be very appreciative.
[–]fhigurethisout1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
He isn't dependent on it. He's had droughts of no drinking. He doesn't need it to live, it's social for him, or for relaxation.
Dependency is weakness and leads to alcoholism. If he had to have a bottle of wine every night or hard liquor that would obviously be an issue. It would impact the quality of our relationship greatly.
So i would say dependency is the best measurement. If your husband needs it just to get through the day and it is impacting the quality of your relationship, then you have to decide if you want to live with that or not.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
He has half the week wine free. He doesn't drink around my children, he doesn't drink drive, his personality is the same. He has some pre existing health issues for which he should limit drinking.
If he's drinking wine during the weekends, and he can manage having a normal life without alcohol, which you pretty much showed he does, this is not alcoholism. Maybe excessive drinking for you, but not alcoholism.
My father drinks two doses of whisky every night. That has never affected his behavior and he has a normal life. My mother finds it a bit excessive, but she never complained about it because it doesn't affect him, thought I have told him it is damaging for his health.
So yeah, I think it would be nice if you told him you care about HIS HEALTH, that's why you don't want to see him drinking. Don't nag, show you're actually worried about his well being. But please never say he's an alcoholic because he is not, and this may severely offend him.
ETA- I would like to remind you the criteria to diagnose alcohol abuse (I'm not even talking about alcohol dependence here, which is a much more severe thing)
(A) A maladaptive pattern of drinking, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by at least one of the following occurring within a 12-month period:
Nothing that your SO did is considered a sign of alcohol abuse. So when you talk to him, show him you're concerned about his health, that's why you think he should drink less.
Do you or your mother have any concerns about your father? I posted my own comment above as I'm in a somewhat similar situation to OP. But my SO's drinking is almost precisely like your father's -- two per night (it has increased at times but 2-3 is the standard for him). On the downside, it is every night. On the upside, he never binge drinks. Period. I've only seen him drunk maybe 2-3 times in our 18 month relationship. I do have concerns but being that I've truly never seen anything negative come from it, just the fact that it is a substance use issue, I'm not sure where I stand. Especially being that this would be the father of my future children, who would have a father like yours. If you wouldn't mind sparing a few words as to whether or not you found it problematic, that would be much appreciated. 2-3 glasses between 7-9 each night doesn't seem hugely problematic to me, but I just don't know.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, my mother doesn't have any concerns about the drinking per se, but about his health. Alcohol damages your health, even if you're not an alcoholic.
I really don't find my father's drinking habit problematic. I think he drinks whisky to relax, he's not addicted to it. Sometimes he doesn't drink anything, and he's okay with it. He never drinks when he's driving or when he's taking any kind of medication either. And I've never ever seen him drunk in my entire life. My mother wish he didn't drink for the same reason I do, because we're concerned about his health, but it's not about alcohol per se.
[–]Littleknownfacts3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
He is a grown man, he knows the health risks associated with drinking and wants to do it anyway. Nothing you can tell him is gonna make him suddenly realize he's drinking too much, probably because he already knows and just doesn't care.
If he's not being violent or belligerent or embarrassing when he drinks, he's doing better than most alcoholics (not saying he is one, but that seems to be what your post is hinting at). Why risk discourse discord in your relationship for something that may or may not happen in the future? Hell, maybe he will get hit by a bus before liver disease gets him.
Obviously you can leave if you really think it's a deal breaker, but you've agreed to date him this long so it's not fair to him that all of a sudden by your standards you decide that he drinks too much.
Edit: Discord, yes I meant discord. Thanks bloopers.
[–]Littleknownfacts1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was unaware the extent of his mid week drinking until a month ago really so that's what's tipped minor concern over to real concern.
I think that's a good sign that you were unaware of his drinking until recently. You thought he was a good man, and nothing has tangibly changed. The only difference is you have a bit more information. But this information doesn't affect how he exists, or how he treats you, or how component he is. If you need to justify this as a non-issue here is the take away: He is the same man before and after you learned this information.
[–]sugarcrushEndorsed Contributor1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If he's drinking standard size bottles, that's 12 glasses of wine. Even over 6 hours that's a lot to drink. I can't imagine anyone finishing 2 bottles alone. My dad, husband, and I recently split 2 bottles between the 3 of us and we all ended up pretty tipsy (and I was definitely drunk). And that was with dinner, my dad and husband are both good sized dudes and regular moderate drinkers.
[–]disposablady 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You say he never "seems" drunk, and that his behaviour doesn't change when he's drinking. If this is true, then that is a good sign.
Has he ever been in trouble with the law over the drinking (i.e., a DUI, cited for public intoxication, etc.)? Has he ever had to miss work because of his drinking?
If the answers to those questions is no, then that is also a good sign in that it is somewhat under control. In that case, I would suggest leading by example, and cutting back your own drinking. You say you drink 1-2 bottles per week, but really, that may be unhealthy in itself and certainly gives the impression that you're comfortable with drinking to an extent which may not reflect how you actually feel. Maybe even avoid that glass with dinner, or whenever you would normally drink, and if he asks explain that you want to be more healthy. This shows that you see the importance of limiting alcohol to benefit your health, and he may use this to bring up a discussion about his own drinking. You can express in that sense your concerns about how unhealthy it is--if he asks--without judging, trying to control, or nagging.
If you express your concerns in a non-controlling way, and he wants to continue as usual, it will be up to you whether or not this is something you want to put up with, or if you should walk away.
[–]renegade1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
A good policy a lot of my heavier drinking friends follow is to take a month off every year. It gives your liver a break and it lets you prove to yourself and others that you CAN.
Also WRT hangovers, try drinking wines from europe only for awhile and see if it makes a difference. We switched to only non-US wines and no more hangovers. Odd I know.
[–]vegancigarette0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
From a social perspective it's a good thing that he doesn't get belligerent or DUIs. However, if someone can drink 2 bottles of wine and still appear "normal"/not drunk, that suggests a serious tolerance and I'd be worried.
OP your partner may be hiding even more drinking when you are apart. I'm a 5'9" female (average male height in America lol) and I'd be wasted if I drank a whole bottle of wine, let alone 2. He unfortunately is suffering from alcoholism if he downs bottles of wine and can act normally.
If he's in his 40s it's unlikely to change, and he probably won't change because you ask him to (he already hasn't). He probably thinks he knows better than you since he's older, but it doesn't take experience or genius to know that drinking multiple bottles of wine to yourself a week is unhealthy alcoholism.
[–]ColdEiric1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Should I, and if so how do I, bring this up? He says he's not "proud" of his drinking but he does enjoy it. The last thing I want is to control or nag.
If you're attempting to 'save him' from his alcoholism, you need to ask him for the reason why he drinks. It's loneliness, fleeing from reality, feelings of inadequacy, something of how he, despite being a fully grown man, is afraid. He might just be an afraid boy whose favorite teddybear's name is wine. And you still need to love him. The cause of alcoholism is something emotional. Remember than you two are a boy and a girl, and if you want to help him, he has to be able to feel comfortable to show his fear in front of you, and that afraid boy needs to feel loved by the girl he holds his hand with on the way to your school. Are you going to let him know that you're going to make his name shine, despite what the other boys and girls at school say about him behind his back? Is he still your King of all the Lions, and are you still his Queen, are you going to pounce at those who might slander him and his great name?
Edit extra info: he volunteered at Xmas that he would cut down drinking after new year - he hasn't. I never asked him to and I have never brought this up with him.
Plans aren't emotional enough to change behavior. Emotions change behavior. This is just a mathematical plan.
[–]blindedbythebrights0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Psychologist here. If you need something to function (for example to unwind or to be able to go to sleep), you are dependent of it. If you would suffer or experience altered functioning if access to that substance would be cut off all of the sudden you are addicted. It's quite simple.
[–]VintageVee0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
None of that is true for him . Example. Last week I made dinner and normally would serve wine with it. I deliberately didn't. And there was none in the house. There's a shop next to my house. He didn't make an issue of it and didn't go to the shop, we just didn't have wine.
Edit: also pardon my manners, OP. I typed in a real rush this morning because your thread totally resonated with me (and as you can see from my own situation, I don't have any advice for you unfortunately). I should have been at least a bit more polite and said "I hope you don't mind me hijacking the thread" or honestly anything would have been better than the rude that popped out. Please excuse!
I'm going to hijack your thread and post my own similar situation that I've been wondering about. It doesn't seem prudent to make it its own thread, particularly not while people's minds are on such a similar topic.
My SO drinks whiskey every night, and can't sleep without it. He's not an alcoholic, but he is a dependent. His body has learned to need it, but as far as his mind goes he would never behave like an addict (they mentally crave it until they are willing to sacrifice other aspects of their life to get it). Frankly I'm more addicted to sugar than he is to alcohol lol. He balances it very well, but I can't help but be a wee bit fearful.
Before we met, there was an 18 month period where he was a complete drunk. Again, I would call him a drunk and not an alcoholic. I may be hamstring myself here but I don't think so, and the reason I make the 'not alcoholic' claim is because when life needed him to cut it out he just did. He didn't have any need for AA or detoxing or anything, he just cut it out. This was during college and he ultimately dropped out because of it, but for other reasons as well.
He hasn't gone back as he has started his own business, and makes well over 6 figures so he doesn't see the point..which I agree. He says his backup plan if the business goes belly up is to finish his last year of school...which I really like that perspective.
Anyway, he does drink 2-4 larger glasses of whiskey every night to sleep. He doesn't drink before all his responsibilities are done for the day, and I've only seen him actually drunk a handful of times and it was all in appropriate settings (birthdays, family parties, etc).
My fear is with the volatility of his work (it's consulting work so it ebbs and flows significantly), that maybe one day he could snap? I don't think I have any reason to think this other than the fact he is a person working in a high-stress industry with a predisposition to drinking. It's really nothing he has done that creates this fear, it's most just the fear of the perfect storm.
We recently talked about it, and I told him I don't expect him to quit drinking, because I know it's his unwinding time, and also because for his industry that would be nigh impossible. I don't even want him to quit because I know he is passionate about whiskey in the same way others are about wine or coffee, he really enjoys it. I told him I also didn't want any rules about it that would make me controlling, or push him into hiding things from me. I didn't want to impose any kind of 'limits' or even go there and that was in no way my desire. All I said was "I want to have as much confidence in your drinking as I do in the rest of our relationship. You're my rock, and I don't want to tense up every time something goes wrong with work because I don't understand your personal range for alcohol or what's okay and what isn't. All I want is a clear idea on what I can expect long-term, and to know that it isn't something I need to worry about. We don't need to find a solution this second, but I just want that confidence before I can completely invest in you and us for a lifetime." He seemed really receptive to it and said he understood, and told me he didn't believe it was currently an issue but that he drinks for an 'effect' (the ability to actually sleep), and that as his tolerance decreases, he can reach that effect sooner, and that he didn't mind lowering his tolerance to 2-3 glasses instead of 2-4. He seemed really not worried by the future, and that made me feel much better as well.
So I'm guessing that this is case closed? It's a very well managed situation but the subject of it is just so serious that I want to be sure it's nothing to fear before we get engaged/married. Which I think our lose timeline has us (hopefully) engaged in 2017 or early '18. I suppose I'm not looking for solutions from you guys, just a few words to let me know your thoughts and if I have the right approach to this situation or not.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What you are describing is called controlled drinking, it's the ear mark of a problem drinker. There's no difference between a "drunk" and an "alcoholic", those describing words are part of the denial a drinker and his family may go through.
It's up to the person with the problem to define what they are and what they want to do about it. Some people go into their old age drinking with little to no consequence. It's russian roulette though.
[–]renegade0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
This will not end well. Sorry.
Do you think the same of OP's situation? Most of the comments in reply to her are not seeing the need to sound the alarm, and they seem to have decent points why they think so that would apply to me as well.
[–]renegade1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The amount of alcohol your guy is consuming seems to be greater, and with more frequency. The fact that he needs it to sleep is very troubling.
I think OP is also in trouble, but he doesn't sound dependent. In both cases there is enough of a pattern going on that professional advice wouldn't hurt.
Well it's much less alcohol, at least in terms of how intoxicated he gets at the moment. The fact that he doesn't get drunk almost ever is one of my greatest sources of relief. 2-3 glasses per night (averages 14-21 glasses per week) vs 4-6 bottles per week (averages 20-30 glasses per week, but is only distributed across 3 nights).
Damn straight about the professional part. Don't know how I would broach that conversation though. Especially being that he's never done anything to worry me at all.
[–]renegade0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The "not getting drunk" part is a huge red flag though. People who can drink and not appear to have had a drink have a high tolerance that goes hand in hand with dependency. I've seen it many times, including a friend who died of it in his mid 30s.
But he does get drunk (and seems drunk) if he's had more than his usual? 3 drinks doesn't seem like enough to get even a generally sober man drunk. If he has 5-6 he does get drunk. I don't mean to appear argumentative, you're raising some great points and I appreciate you taking the time to discuss.
[–]renegade0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hard to know without seeing him in action. If you guys take a month off drinking successfully that will tell you a lot. You might also want to look for articles that have been around that talk about "what happened when I stopped drinking" etc.
BTW I'm someone who is totally in the same boat. I don't have much if any affect from half a bottle, so I have no problem drinking a bottle on my own. I do feel it when I go that far. I also know I'd be better off if I didn't, and that my girlfriend drinks more now than she did before she met me.
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