TRP on chivalry?

2FAM0US · 2013-12-18T03:17:54+00:00

chivalry comes from a time when good manners were a sign of high worth. men who had money could afford to get training to become gentlemen. eventually the general masses caught on and all men began emulating these mannerisms to appear high-value. the tradition stuck. nowadays it is more antiquated than anything the feminists try to abolish. some women use it to guilt you into being a beta.

frugal_masturbater · 2013-12-18T05:22:46+00:00

I still exercise chivalry. I will say there is a difference between holding a door open casually, or holding it open facing the woman you hold it open for with a face that says "thank me".

When I hold a door open it's in a casual motion that says "I do this because I am being nice and not expecting thanks".

In all my life, I'm 40, I have never been met with weirdness or "you don't have to do this".

You could call this beta, I call it being nice and just adding a little positive charge to someone's day. I don't care whether it's considered some non-TRP behavior. It doesn't mean I lick their shoes or make their breakfast, it's small acts that make someone else feel good.

mordanus · 2013-12-18T09:28:04+00:00

Chivalry is kind of a weird topic. Long ago a bunch of knights got together and decided that they would vow to be better. They would be brave, noble and protect those that couldn't protect themselves such as women children and the elderly.

As time went on people grew to love the knights and their code and taught it to their children. It soon became part of growing up and would be taught to the boys to make them better and more noble. The problem is that the teachings of the code got twisted up a bit and started including shit that put the weak up on pedestals. The code that was created to protect the weak was twisted to make the weak into better than those knights.

It was never intended to be for men to open doors for women or pay for their drinks/dinner. Now in order to feel that we are noble men we must subject ourselves to whatever garbage people warped chivalry to become. Me personally I say to do away with the whole thing.

Chivalry to me is like a quote I heard a bit back "Do a good deed for someone once and you will get gratitude. Do the good deed again and it will become expected. Keep doing it and it will be demanded." Our chivalrous actions may have at one time gotten us gratitude but that time is long gone. It is demanded of us every day and that shit needs to stop.

IDefyAxioms · 2013-12-18T03:41:27+00:00

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Possumsgrease · 2013-12-18T04:56:05+00:00

if you do it do it to make yourself feel good not because they deserve your chivalry

johnnight · 2013-12-18T11:59:39+00:00

If you do a nice gesture to supplicate an attractive female, that's weak. If you do this, because it's part of your inner rules, that's strong. The difference is in how it looks like on the outside. Are you visibly pedestalizing her? Is it written on your face?

Or are you aloof like she is nothing special? One could even go as far as verbally explaining that a particular action is done just because of compliance with inner rules, not to supplicate anyone.

Archwinger · 2013-12-18T16:11:51+00:00

Chivalry was derived from the knights' codes of honor and decorum. Knights used to be badass soldiers who fought in wars, killed dragons, rescued princesses, and were all around heroes.

Today, Elton John is a knight.

Any questions?

CptDefB · 2013-12-18T14:06:54+00:00

These days, I hold doors open because of habit. No more, no less. After a while, I stopped looking at whoever it was held for to remove my beta expectations from the act. As you've pointed out, a thank you from a female under 45 is a surprise in the sea obliviousness. That said, I still don't bother with a smile or a nod or what have you, because their "Thank you" is just as much habit as my holding the door. It means absolutely nothing towards achieving the sexual imperative.

Chivalry in general is shit, dude. I never really considered it as an entirely male abstraction until /u/Force_Padawan's post. I understood it was worthless, I didn't understand why.

Chivalry is irrelevant currency.

That's why.

Koopatr00pa · 2013-12-18T16:45:01+00:00

My parents were born in a time where being chivalrous and overall nice was an expected thing from you. You could be the poorest person in the village but If you behaved even remotely nicely you were sure to have a seat at anyone's' table.

When I grew up in the late 80's early 90's I would always see people on the street take off their hat or say a good morning to random strangers. I asked my grandma and she told me that it was an old custom from colonial times (in South America) that just stuck around. My dad always told me that being nicer would get me a lot farther than being a grumpy person. So, I'll hold doors for women and men. When I cross paths with a girl I'll signal for her to go first. Same as pulling out a chair for her on a date.

Honestly, I don't care if anyone views it as a strange thing or something that never gets done. If anyone ever gives me grief for it I just shrug and let it fly by because at that point that is a battle not worth my energy. I'm chivalrous, or nice, for my sake and not yours. All of this while living in NYC. That's a challenge.

Ahrius · 2013-12-19T07:19:02+00:00

I've come to view chivalry less as something I do for a woman and more as something I do for myself. It helps me get a clear picture of where I stand and what my role is.

I really can't emphasize enough how important it is for both parties to know and understand their role. If everyone does what they're supposed to, then you're in a harmonious relationship. If the guy is too beta and acts like a woman or the girl has too much fem-aggro and acts like a dude, then it's going to fall apart.

Men act like men. Women act like women.

So how do you deal with fem-aggro? Stick to your guns. I'm not talking about discussion or arguments, but rather - DO WHAT YOU AS A MAN ARE SUPPOSE TO DO and the woman will fall into her role. Is she working and bringing home a pay check? Great. It doesn't matter. Get your ass off the couch and go work. Establishing your role and maintaining it regardless of circumstances will not only push her towards femininity, but also build your confidence - because you know you're doing right which will change your whole attitude. Insist on taking on responsibility. Make it so that you look after things so that your absence is noticed. If the partnership falls apart, that's fine because you go right back to doing what you always do - look after your home.

How does chivalry come in to this?

Treat her with respect, the same way you would treat a business partner. You wouldn't act like a beta when negotiating a deal and you shouldn't in a relationship either. Treat her with the basic respect and courtesy you would extend to a potential client and you will establish this as a more than emotional partnership.

Protect her like a man. This is all about body language that you CONSTANTLY NEED TO MONITOR. How you carry yourself, how you act is going to tell her what is expected of her. Think of it like dancing - the man leads and positions himself so she can follow. How is this manifested? Make her walk on the inside of the sidewalk, with you between her and the street. Sleep on the side of the bed closest to the door. Open the door and walk in, while still holding it. Take a look around before stepping in as if you're making sure the place is safe. Body language is a powerful communicative tool, and when you say, "Hey, I'm protecting you" they start to figure out how to move accordingly.

Above all else, these are two forms of chivalry that should be maintained after all the years.

2013-12-18T03:34:21+00:00

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IDGAFwhatmyREStagis · 2013-12-18T15:56:38+00:00

If you hold the door for a hot young woman who doesn't show any gratitude does it annoy you more than if she was some grouchy old man?

That would mean either you were white knighting and expecting something from her in return. Or you resent her for being spoiled.

2013-12-18T18:47:49+00:00

Too many fucks given

7Vega · 2013-12-19T14:38:51+00:00

When women show me respect, I show them respect.

That is the extent of my chivalry.

atlas87 · 2013-12-18T08:00:23+00:00

How would you feel if a guy walking ahead of you opened a door, let you go through first and nodded as you thanked him?

Now how would you feel if a homeless person did it and expected a dollar for helping you out?

I might be interpreting chivalry as just doing nice shit for people, but in that case I think it's always appropriate if it's something like holding a door open.

As for women, they are no longer delicate little flowers. They have their own jobs, money (or they have someone they can get it from), and they can sure as shit get their own door without dudes tripping over themselves to try and help them expecting something in return. This I think is where you see a lot of the negative reactions is when you come off like the homeless guy begging for something in return, rather than some guy doing something because that's the way he is and he would do it for anyone. I think that's probably a good barometer for your question: Would you do the same for a random guy on the street? Your guy friends?

I still pay for stuff, but that's because I'm a fucking millionaire compared to many of the women I'm with that work in the service industry or are still in school and I would rather not be restricted to going only to places they can afford.

648262 · 2013-12-18T06:43:27+00:00

Do you do it for them or for yourself?

You seem to expect a different reaction and it disappoints you. TRP is a lot about accepting reality.

Your actions will also seem out of place for some people I think. It's therefore important to do it for yourself and be outcome independent of it.

Popgardem · 2013-12-18T14:49:55+00:00

Sorry OP, despite your best effort to say you are being chivalrous in an alpha way the post is screaming the opposite: you are being outcome dependent.

It's getting harder and harder for me specifically for privileged girls generally who are 35 years old or younger, because they are just so blaze and nonchalant about it... I unfortunately find myself sometimes going out of my way now to be discourteous... Shortened by Popgardem.

You are changing your actions because you are not getting the reaction you want out of young, privileged women. This is textbook outcome dependance. Instead, hold open that door because you believe it is a nice thing to do not because you want others to appreciate your niceness. I get from your post that you probably have a fair amount of TRP theory in you already, so I don't need to waste time explaining this more. Read over your post again critically and I think you will realize your mistakes.

As for chivalry itself, I am of the opposite opinion of most others here so far, I recommend it. While it is not required to be a complete man or in your sexual strategy or anything like that. You can get by perfectly without chivalry and most do. If you can pull off chivalry correctly then the results can be surprising. I view chivalry as a value amplifier, if you are beta it makes you seem ten times more beta, if you are alpha it makes you seem ten times more alpha.

Let's take an example that has happened to me recently. I was on a daytime date with one of my plates. For the record I am in a LTR and have no intention of fucking this date, but I still subscribe to the spinning plates theory. Anyways, I was on a daytime date with one of my plates and we were walking downtown when at a crosswalk I noticed an old man struggling. This man obviously didn't come into the city much and was having trouble figuring out how the push button crosswalk worked. Now, on this particular road motorists are terrible. Usually when you push a crosswalk button and the lights start flashing cars will slow down and look for the pedestrian. This road they don't. Instead as a pedestrian you pretty much have to walk out in front of a car and stare the driver in the eyes to force them to stop. The old man was having trouble asserting himself like this, and honestly I don't blame him because he was so frail it seemed like a stiff wind could blow him over dead.

When I noticed what was happening I stopped and told my date to wait for me then went over and helped this man across the crosswalk while giving him my arm. I then walked back across the crosswalk again and continued on my date. After I explained what I did to her (she asked) it was like she was instantly ready to jump my bones.

I never really put any analytical thought to that moment until now. Looking back there are two ways this act could be viewed by my date and it all depended on my frame. The first way is the beta way. A beta is normally a follower and naturally falls into helping people. From an evolutionary point of view he can't provide for himself and instead relies on others. He thinks that by being nice others will like him and continue to satisfy his needs for him. In this particular case by helping the old man across the street he is hoping his date noticed and will later satisfy his sexual needs. The other way is the alpha view. An alpha is capable of providing for himself, but more than that he is capable of protecting his lovers and the others in his tribe. By helping the old man across the street he is showing his value by his ability to protect the tribe.

I hope the example shows you how chivalry amplifies your frame, but does nothing for your frame yourself. This particular time my chivalry worked out for me, but other times I had the wrong frame and my dates didn't want anything to do with me. One of the biggest struggles with TRP for me is remembering that it is not what you do but why you do it. There have been countless times that I have looked back on a moment and thought I did this, why didn't it work? only to remember my frame was off at that moment.

Anyways, I have a habit of rambling. Let me know what you think of this.

tl;dr: I recommend chivalry because it amplifies your frame.

On a side note, does anyone else notice that red pill explanations have a certain pseudoscience feel to them similar Karl Popper's view on Freudian psychology? I mean this in the most negative connotation possible. I believe the red pill works but the logic is a huge problem for me. I would like my explanations to have carry more weight than the irrefutable past explanation power that I am currently stuck in.

Thanaton · 2013-12-18T03:13:54+00:00

I suppose it's more of the frame of mind you're in when you're opening the door for someone. If you're saying, fuck it, I like manners, I don't care what girls say or are doing it because women are too incompetent to do it themselves, it might not be a problem. If you're doing it because you think that women are the fairer sex and should be treated as better than you and therefore shouldn't put them through the physical trauma of opening a door, then you have a problem.

Title	TRP on chivalry?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	11
Comments	30
Date	December 18, 2013 3:08 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1t53e3/trp_on_chivalry/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/trp-on-chivalry.8989 https://theredarchive.com/post/8989

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