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[–]Wollff 18 points19 points20 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Since you mentioned the word philosophy, it will be my pleasure to take this apart for you.
Essentially your mistake lies in a strange definition of "outcome independence". You define it in a nihilisitc manner: Outcome independence means that one isn't allowed to care about outcomes. That is not a very good definition for the reasons you outline.
A better definition: Outcome independence means that your happiness is independent from the outcome of a certain action.
If you reduce your emotional investment in a particular outcome, doesn't that by its very nature reduce the satisfaction of a successful close?
Your premise is flawed. Let's test it with a simple example: I buy a lottery ticket.
You are claiming that I can only be happy about the million dollars I win if I am emotionally invested in the outcome: I can only be happy about winning, if I am ready to be equally unhappy about losing.
I don't think that's true. When I buy a lottery ticket knowing that I will still be perfectly content with my life, even if I don't win the grand prize, I can still be insanely happy about winning. And if I lose, it's no big deal.
I don't need the million dollar prize to be happy. But I can still be as insanely happy about is as anybody else. That's outcome independence.
If I actually don't care what this girl thinks of me, then why should it feel good when she digs me?
Who says that you may not care about what a girl thinks of you? Outcome independence only means that your happiness is independent from the outcome.
If you don't get the girl to like you, you can still mope about not getting something you really wanted, if you like. But you don't need to despair about not getting something you needed for your happiness.
The term "needy" sounds the way it does for a reason.
tl;dr: Redefine "outcome independence", and your problems are solved.
[–][deleted] 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]Wollff 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
isn't it necessarily putting a ceiling on how much you care about a particular girl's opinion of you?
Putting in a ceiling on how much you care about other people's opinions is a healthy thing to do. You can't control what others think. That's their decision. If you let others decide how you feel, depending on their current approval rating of you, you are walking a thorny path.
The bottom line is that even if you're "outcome independent" you're still LESS happy at the end of the night if you don't close the girl than if you did.
Yes, that's what the lottery ticket analogy boils down to: If you don't win the jackpot, you will probably not experience the manic joy that comes with winning millions of dollars.
But even if you don't win, don't close, or crash and burn in hilarious glory, if you are outcome independent you never wager your happiness. I was a little sloppy in my previous post. I sometimes used happiness, where joy would have been a more appropriate word. In my defense: Those two are easy to confuse. And that confusion often leads to problems.
When you win in the lottery, you might believe that money will bring you happiness. When you start to improve your game, you might believe the women and the lifestyle will make you genuinely happy. Many a millionaire and PUA can attest: This isn't so. At least in the long term many become frustrated: "I have all I wished for, so why am I still not happy?"
The other side of the coin are the people who desire something oh so strongly: "I can never be truly happy unless I drive a 300HP car", or: "I will forever be a miserable sob, unless I finally get more experience with women", are a few of the usual statements.
Money, women, cars: Those external things can bring you joy. But happiness, that's something you have to get from within yourself.
And thus, finally, we come full circle:
Outcome dependent people mistake joy for happiness. Thus they mistake things they want for things they need.
Outcome independent people realize that external things can bring them joy, but that happiness is firmly rooted in the realm of inner game. External things can't touch that. Hammertime!
tl;dr: Things get even clearer when we distinguish between joy and happiness.
[–]Hairy_Wolverine 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This is a great example of something I learned in a psychology of happiness course that I took called Hedonic Adaption. Essentially, it is the idea that (mentally stable) humans adjust to their baseline happiness level after a given period of time, no matter how amazing or terrible an experience was. People who get married/get into new relationship only show increased happiness for a period of about three years before returning to baseline. Widows who had their spouse die only showed decreased happiness levels for a period of several months before returning to baseline. Interestingly, I remember seeing a study in which people who won the lottery were actually less happy in the long run Source1.
If you want to increase your overall baseline happiness in regards to experiences you have, such as those involved with pickup, attitudes of appreciation, gratitude, and savoring have shown to be helpful to increasing ones baseline happiness. You can balance both sloughing off rejections with outcome independence, while still savoring the good experience you get with women as well.
Source2
tl;dr Savor your experiences while being outcome independent
[–]Wollff 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Don't get me started on happiness. I might start rambling even more than I already have. In order to avoid that, let me try to summarize:
Be your own happiness, by facing the world with a mind open to enjoy it all.
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This
[–]leodoestheopposite 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Since we're talking about philosophy here I go: Enjoy the process, not the end result.
At the beginning you can think of the process as the chase, but as you progress the process is indeed life itself, enjoy the process of living the best life you can, be awesome in everything you do 24/7, whether you're meditation, having sex, or anything in-between.
[–]Lead ModeratorThrowawayPUA 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Being outcome dependent is an excessive attachment to results, that gets in the way of actual human interaction. You're so interested in the result that you don't enjoy what is actually happening between the two of you, in the moment. Being outcome independent means you aren't constantly thinking about the future instead of what's happening now.
[–]CorAutMors 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
being outcome independent and emotional are two close but seperate ideas
outcome independent just means that you arent letting the outcome of any set effect who you are and your game to significantly...its just a reminder that getting turned down once or a million times doesnt mean you should quit
it also means that closing a hundred times in a row doesnt mean you should get big headed and complacent with the whole idea...theres always room for improvement
outcome independence is something you can personally control
emotions are not...emotions come and go at their own whim...even the pros of pickup can get hit with something like aa, they have just learned to deal with it
similarly, getting rejected always sucks and closing with a girl is always awsome...these emotions will always happen and you should accept them as a part of yourself
its more along the lines of let the emotions come and use the idea of outcome independency to guide your response to them
[–]rmbarnes 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You've spotted the dark side that PUA gurus never tell you about outcome independance. If I'm outcome Independant when trying to pull an HB10, then I won't be sad if I don't get her, but I won't be happy if I do. You can still take pleasure from the physical act of fucking her though.
[–]meandmyguitar 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
come to the dark side
[–]dumcumster 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Women see right through you when you're being fake,
ahahahahahahahahaha
[–]IV-655361 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Being "outcome independent" isn't the opposite of being "attracted to a girl". Outcome independence how I see it is "I like this girl and will try to push it forward but it's okay if we don't work out".
You shouldn't actually be going for every girl on earth. You should be going for the ones you actually like. It's win-win in that regard.
If I actually don't care what this girl thinks of me
I think you are approaching it from the wrong angle. It's as if instead of thinking "oh man, does she like me?", you are thinking "pfff, I'm not even gonna care if she likes me or not". The focus is still on her, which is the underlying problem with both of those mindsets and why I think you are still conflicted. The whole point is to have the focus on both of you.
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[–]Wollff 18 points19 points20 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Wollff 4 points5 points6 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Hairy_Wolverine 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Wollff 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]leodoestheopposite 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Lead ModeratorThrowawayPUA 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]CorAutMors 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]rmbarnes 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]meandmyguitar 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]dumcumster 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]IV-655361 point [recovered] | Copy Link