Feminism @ Crisis centers; a human rights violation?

shitthisfuck · 2013-12-22T05:47:37+00:00

I had to attend a crisis center recently. I went in with an open mind, but as soon as I saw a poster on the wall telling me why I need feminism- I clammed up....

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[–]HumblePig 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Short reply: You had to attend a crisis center, so you must need some assistance. I recommend trying to get that help you need from them, trying different workers, counselors, or asking for referrals to other sources if that shelter ultimately can't help.

Long reply: I work at a DV Center, a rare one where there are male staff members and regular male counseling clients. Our shelter's new training manuals cite Erin Pizzey's work in some places, and during a recent rules overhaul we near unanimously agreed to let older sons into the shelter with their mothers. I'm not saying we're an equal shelter, sadly; we can provide counseling and much more short term hotel funding for adult male victims, but it is ultimately a women's DV shelter. here are promotional materials by agencies supporting our shelter and gendered events that I don't agree with, but the first rule of thumb is to treat the client as an individual; try bringing up your concerns about the gendered nature of your situation and see if their response feels dogmatic or like something you can agree with on a fundamental level outside of a few buzzwords radicals have claimed and distorted from common understanding. For most people, feminism is a synonym for equal rights. The fact that we deal first hand with so many women claiming domestic abuse makes us pretty damned wise to the fact that women are more than capable of being just as abusive as men: in fact, it's what drove me to interest in men's rights. Most shelters will have more than one counselor or staff member available, so don't be afraid to ask to talk to someone else or to try on a different shift.

If they do turn out to be a deeply dogmatic lot or trained according to an ideology rather than as proper counselors, then that just sucks balls and I'm sorry they wasted your time. I won't say you're over reacting because it is a real possibility. But there are some places and some workers, even at what are primarily women's shelters, who give a damn about male victims.

[–]typhonblue 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]HumblePig 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

While comparing it to apartheid as most people understand the word is a stretch, you're damn right it shouldn't be an issue at all on any scale. TRPACC posted a link to the article by Douglas and Hines suggesting that male victims are more successful in seeking help from sources other than hotlines and centers. This highlights a real problem as you said, and also suggests potentially more applicable resources; the article also highlights how those men receive help through any source (but statistically, more likely the non-crisis center/hotline ones) are less likely to lapse into greater problems such as drug/alcohol abuse or enduring mental health crisis. Illustrating the tangible effect of non-gendered services may help pull some political purse strings; after all, mental health and legal resources don't just help men more effectively, they also help women. "Feminism helps men too!" is better countered with "This helps both men and women better" rather than "Oh, it does not," regardless of how demonstrably true the latter may be.

I'd be interested in expanded studies of DV victims overall and whether crisis programs or the more general resources men must turn to are more effective to all help seekers. This study showed more women said they "felt" helped but as the study focused on men, we had more tangible measures by which to measure success. The most popular and successful help for men was family and friends; if feelings were the only measure, I suspect that free "service" helps more people as effectively as expensive ideological programs.

There may be societal resistance to funding what people cannot or don't want to see (male DV victims), but anyone who argues that funneling funds from women-only programs to general ones, especially if those general programs can be found more effective overall, will be in the unfortunate position of arguing against non-controversial services. Alternately, they could generalize their services more. I've been surprised that in discussion with staff at my shelter, we actually opted for that to some degree!

In short, the best recourse against a bad ideology is to present a demonstrably better alternative.

I also acknowledge that it won't always work, that it hasn't worked fully and can go in painfully small steps, and that we have every right to get angry and vent about that, but harping on female privilege puts us in a victim mentality. As true as the status of victim may or may not be relative to an intangible enemy, it's not a healthy, helpful or happy place to be.

[–]edtastic 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

While comparing it to apartheid as most people understand the word is a stretch, you're damn right it shouldn't be an issue at all on any scale.

It's not a stretch when you consider that VAWA as it was originally written was gendered to the core. This was the law setting up standards based on gender where one group get's treated one way and the other another. Then you have the reality of only setting up shelters for one group around the nation while ignoring the needs of the other.

This went on in the universities where women's studies was established but nothing for men. Their ideas and philosophies ended up dominating the social sciences in the same way one might see with white supremacy in a whites supremacist culture.

Apartheid sounds extreme but it's not. Such systems don't remove all rights for a given group, they simply give one fewer rights and the other more. That happened to men.

[–]HumblePig 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, and it's bullshit and we should be and are angry about that. It deprives people (men) of basic rights and defies logic and any coherent form of moral reasoning. It has people removed from their homes unjustly, ostracized from their community and family for at times the mere supposition of committing a crime, and is based first on gender and secondly political/philosophical (some would even argue 'religious' for the dogmatic nature of it) alignment.

Make no mistake, it's bad, but it's not a certain and direct removal of an entire group from their homes with absolutely zero recourse. It's indirect, and kangaroo court though it may be there is at least enough potential recourse that "lawyer up" is considered good, at least not completely futile advice. Nobody would even think to suggest that as a potential recourse to the apartheid. It doesn't involve any form of ritualized slaughter, or literal ground and chemical warfare, typically associated (and also being the first dictionary definition and hit on Wikipedia) with the word apartheid.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying that makes the injustices unimportant. The problems seem clear enough to not to need to invite politically charged, questionable comparisons. VAWA is still unacceptably gendered to the core and that doesn't improve just for the fact that it doesn't involve necklacing. Little reason to invite such an overshadowing comparison.

[–]typhonblue 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]HumblePig 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Most people understand apartheid to be the racially charged situation in Africa post WWII. Make no mistake, men have a "mountain of problems" but we're not systematically denied all aspects of citizenship, not even in the DV sphere (unbalanced as it most definitely is). If we want to go with an alternate dictionary definition of apartheid as general government segregation (a secondary definition in most dictionaries), we likewise need to adhere to the dictionary definitions of feminism, relating to equality; if that were the first thing to come to mind for us when we think "feminism" then very few of us would see even a problem here.

I think it'd be more intellectually honest of us to avoid picking out politically charged words and applying special, perhaps accurate but decidedly non-standard definitions to them to argue our case; feminism and racism have been redefined (mostly with "plus power") by people trying to control the dialogue of movements that are sympathetic by their original meanings.

Men's rights issues are legit in plain language. Calling it unjust, alienating and inefficient, particularly with good data, is both more honest and efficient than comparing it to a politically charged time of murder, mass exodus, slavery, and other issues on a more obvious and massive scale which would cause most people to blow the comparison off as hyperbole.

A victim mentality doesn't mean someone isn't or hasn't been a victim; it's a learned style, but if the phrase is generally taken to be victim blaming, then my apologies. I need to reframe. Victims react to situations and often those reactions effect their situation. I don't think we're in such a hopeless state of victimhood that it's appropriate to believe we have no recourse and no outlet but to hate the intangible mass oppressor. There is a non-negligible potential for improved outcomes on a larger, and most importantly to the OPs case, on an individual level. Thus I think we should focus on that; defining the problem is helpful and helps in strategy. So as not to waste the efforts in defining and identifying the hostile elements, don't let fist shaking defeatism be the last step.

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[–]acgzmn 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link

I used to work for a crisis center and we were taught to be sensitive to the alienation men might feel asking for help.

In canvassing we used gender neutral language and often specifically referred to men as targets of sexual abuse. I always thought it was odd that when I mentioned that men could be raped people shut down a little so I think the bigger issue is a society that tells men to be invincible and the laundry list of things women are told to be. A poster concerning feminism has a place in a crisis center just as much as a poster concerning the effects of gender stereotypes in general. If you brought that up to your local crisis center I imagine they would be very supportive of your concerns because the goal is to help as many people as possible.

In short, that poster was probably there because the intuitive way to stop rape is to teach people to stop raping each other but I could be wrong without more information.

[–]edtastic 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

A poster concerning feminism has a place in a crisis center just as much as a poster concerning the effects of gender stereotypes in general.

No it's not. A political ideology doesn't need a poster in a crisis center. That poster is as inappropriate as one advocating for a candidate, a religion, or a political party. Feminism doesn't need start sponsored marketing. Gender equality on the other hand would be fine. If we have moved from calling fire men fire fighters then we can detach gender equality from feminism.

In short, that poster was probably there because the intuitive way to stop rape is to teach people to stop raping each other but I could be wrong without more information.

You would have to be incredibly naive to assume that poster had that kind of power. The point was to market an ideology which is fairly hostile towards men and masculinity. If it wasn't there would be no men's rights movement. The group think surrounding feminists perspectives focuses on men recognizing their privilege and asking male victims to do that is a travesty let alone average men who have nothing over the women around them.

Gender equality itself doesn't have that problem. Put a poster up for that which doesn't set out to marginalize or make a villain out of either sex.

[–]acgzmn -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I understand what you mean when you refer to feminism as a political ideology, but if you look up any definition of feminism it will refer to it as a larger movement encompassing things outside the political. When it comes to the scenarios I often encountered in the crisis center, feminism (read: equal rights here, since the original goal of feminism was equality) was a helpful ideology for empowering women against situations in which they disempowered themselves or didn't see it happening from others. Oftentimes is was something they hadn't thought about before.

On your second point, yes that would be naive of me to assume a poster could stop rape. I'm sorry if it seemed as if I was saying that. To clarify, I meant that a lot of crisis centers focus on education as a means to prevent rape so I was positing that the poster was related to that idea but apparently it wasn't.

The assumption that feminism is one thing as opposed to a multi-faceted ideology that is constantly evolving is just as bad as assuming that all men are privileged jerks or that all men's rights activists are nerds who can't get laid. Combatting extremism is important, though, so I respect your frustration. I wouldn't want any man to feel like I hate him just because of his gender.

[–]edtastic 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The assumption that feminism is one thing as opposed to a multi-faceted ideology that is constantly evolving is just as bad as assuming that all men are privileged jerks or that all men's rights activists are nerds who can't get laid.

Feminism operates from a core set of premises that MRA's disagree with. The most fundamental of which is that modern western societies are set up to oppress women and favor men and their needs over that of women. The notion that we are today living in a patriarchy who's cultural legacy places women at a distinct disadvantage to men is another element we challenge. The worst of all that it's reasonable to assume that men are out to oppress women through rape, violence, and assorted wrongs.

Now if you can't show me a form of feminism that does not assume these things are true then their isn't much need for nuance. The premise we presume is there are enough incidental and occasionally intentional advantages and disadvantages for both sexes that neither would hold a dominant position except for the disproportionate and dominance of feminist thought in the social discourse which causes society to favor the women over men. Also most disparities between the sexes result from their own personal choices rather than a conspiracy by either sex to marginalize the other. This of course is assuming there was not a rarely opposed massively powerful gender lobby acting on behalf of one sex and quite often against the other.

The stereotype of Men's Rights activists sound an awful like what men used to say about feminists but the goal of MRA's is to put an end to a gender war rather than start one. This "constantly evolving" feminism gives it the opportunity to self correct but the amount of radical change required to actually treat both sexes equally would make it far less appealing to the women who cling to it out of anger and resentment towards men. Of course plenty of men have similar feelings towards women but they don't back that up with a full on women resenting movement that lectures men on how women suck in universities.

Male positive feminism would be nice but it's not realistic nor appealing to women looking for a space to vent their frustrations with men.

[–]acgzmn 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay, so this helps me understand the position a little more.

Essentially your goal is to end the gender war and you're okay with the idea of male positive feminism (which sounds like it needs a better name. Idk. equality?)

You're right that there are definitely women who hate men and are also feminist in the same way that there are men who hate women. I don't think that many feminists believe in a giant male conspiracy on behalf of all men young and old. Society went in a direction that favored a patriarchy and it does none of us any good. My consistent point has been that if you see a problem, bring it up. At your university, at your work, at your local crisis center, but bring it up in a way that isn't hateful and you'll probably be heard. If I'm wrong, we all have some work to do.

My whole reason for being on this particular forum was to understand what the core values of MRAs are and find the real difference between feminism and men's rights. It seems like, as with any controversy, the extremism is dominating perception and conversation and that is incredibly unproductive. The angry feminist counter-thread is a nice example of how we aren't doing our jobs correctly, but it doesn't have to be like that.

[–]edtastic 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Society went in a direction that favored a patriarchy and it does none of us any good.

The patriarchy built nearly all human societies so how is it that it didn't do us any good? In common practice it came down to a division of labor between people who loved each other or at the least considered one another family. Yes men did rule but these weren't democracies. People didn't have rights under authoritarian, totalitarians, monarchs, Emperors, kings and war lords. With the advent of modern democracy and modernity in general the division of labor became redundant. That's when Women's Liberation came along to finally nudge women out the domestic role.

The myths of women leading vastly different from men that I heard in childhood never came to pass. Aggressive and competitive people rise to the top and in those roles they end up doing similar things because that's what circumstances demand. We should by now be above the naive idealism of early feminists with their female chauvinist leanings or even anti equality 'women are different' assumptions.

At your university, at your work, at your local crisis center, but bring it up in a way that isn't hateful and you'll probably be heard. If I'm wrong, we all have some work to do.

Men and people in general have learned that you don't go challenging an established social justice narrative because you'll get your head bit off. If someone is going to label you a women hater and you actually love women it's going to make you think twice about challenging unfairness. The same systems setup to protect women can effectively be used as weapons to silence men. We've seen that time and again.

It seems like, as with any controversy, the extremism is dominating perception and conversation and that is incredibly unproductive.

The same thing happened when feminists went about deconstructing patriarchy. Since MRA's are deconstructing the feminists narrative which is overloaded with rather bigoted assumptions about both sexes the response to an issue isn't going to be moderate or neutral. Every issue is a tool to explore that space beyond the established narrative just like with me responding to your comment.

People are looking for a organization rather than a movement. Organizations are productive, movements are ideas shared by many with a common goal. Actually getting to that goal in a organized way usually requires something more organized than a sub reddit.

The emergence of the MRM is a new thing even if the MRM itself is not. It's like feminism that remained an issue but reemerged in waves. If you want more organization than build it. The establishment isn't us.

The angry feminist counter-thread is a nice example of how we aren't doing our jobs correctly, but it doesn't have to be like that.

The angry feminists counter is exactly what we suppose to be doing. What we are not suppose to do is allow feminists to control the agenda so they may undermine a ideological rival. Your position is equivalent to walking up to a Black Panther meeting and asking them to stop complaining about white supremacy.

This isn't just about helping men deal with issues. It's about changing a culture and that's why the anti feminists element remains a core issue. The feminists narrative itself is an obstacle to men getting help so it needs to change.

[–]shitthisfuck[S] 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

One of the main reasons I was denied access from my child was my "aggressive tone of voice" while exasperated/upset/angry in an official setting over multiple abuses of our human rights.

I never made any threats, overt hostile actions or anything like that; I just pissed off the women who ran the place because ... Men are always the aggressors.

It's tone policing at its most vicious.

Anyways I'm on track to have full shared custody in the next few months, but that incident will haunt me forever.

It's normal to be upset when you're being abused by those with power.

Turning that around and using corporate policies to violate fundamental rights is a very insidious use of non-aggression policies. Expressing emotion is not aggression or violence.

I believe the feminist nature of these organization continues to contribute to the marginalization of Fathers.

Male emotion = aggressive, violent. Female emotion = normal, expected.

That's one of the reasons I needed this crisis center in the first place. Anti-male bias.

My lawyer is AMAZING and caring, but I know that if I criticize feminism, she will take it personally and I don't want to lose her.

Edit to add: I object to the subjective nature of the allegation.

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Those two links talk about the CIA funding the "Independent Service for Information, set up at Harvard specifically for the purpose of getting some young anti-Communist Americans to attend a huge youth festival being organized by the Communists in Vienna in 1959", which Gloria Steinem was recruited to run. It wasn't until 1972 that she founded Ms. Magazine. I also looked at Wikipedia, which says

a radical feminist group, raised the question of whether Steinem had continuing ties with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and whether she had been "meteorically installed" as the leader of the movement.[31][32] Though she admitted to having worked for a CIA-financed foundation in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and acknowledged these ties in interviews given to the New York Times and Washington Post in 1967 in the wake of the Ramparts magazine CIA exposures (nearly two years before Steinem attended her first Redstockings or feminist meeting), Steinem in 1975 denied any continuing involvement.

She was doing pro-American anti-communist international propaganda work for the CIA, a decade before Ms Magazine. In fact, after her CIA stint, she did articles for Show magaine, Esquire Magazine, the New York Magazine, Cosmopolitan magazine, and NBC; covering contraception, Playboy bunnies, John Lennon, and abortion, among other things.

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[–]edtastic 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry but that 'human' went about campaigning to vilify my gender in destructive manner that has managed to persist for decades. Getting credit for a business venture comes down to proving you can make money selling the product. Ms.Magazine wasn't profitable. My interpretation is that it was bankrolled to encourage women to work which is exactly what the powers that be (big money) would want. Why not double the work force so you can suppress wages? It's a no brainier.

I'm all for women working but the campaigns waged by women like her went on to degrade the women who didn't. It insulted SAHM's, insulted men and fathers, and insulted anyone who didn't embrace their rigid dogmatic ideology.

It matters what you say and do and when what you do is encourage disdain for some large innate human group then you should be condemned.

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I don't consider a poster with a non-aggressive political message to be an exercise in power of any sort, any more than I'd consider a bumper sticker or something like that.

I also consider most of feminism to be either in service of men as well as women (frex, through education on and attempts to dismantle damaging social roles and expectations, or revaluing traditionally feminine roles and interests so that they aren't dismissed as frivolous or not worth people's time)-- or at least not actively harming men, because social justice ideologies shouldn't be actively hurting entire groups in general. (Unless the groups are, y'know, groups of bigots. I'm okay with bigotry becoming socially unacceptable through education on why bigotry is bad.)

From my POV as a feminist, I view this as about as much a barrier to men accessing services as a sign saying "Embrace racial diversity!" or something like that would be a barrier to white people accessing services. It's not saying that you're bad for being a man, just that there's support for women. (And probably also support for men; and if there is not support for men, then idek, but you've not really left enough details for me to try and form a definitive opinion on if there was other toxicity going on. Aside from apparently being able to tell a woman was a sexual domme by her boots and skirt, which still has me completely baffled.)

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[–]edtastic 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Women tend to abuse the word feminism, yes. But both men and women tend to group butt hurt women and real feminists together, which gives the rest of us a bad reputation.

You are gas-lighting. You know darn well the 'bad feminists' are just as much the core of the movement. They are the Gloria Steinem's and the Bell Hooks who teach naive little girls how to hate men with a passion. Men ain't never right and they always wrong so long as they if at any point cause a women to feel bad intentionally or not. So blame him. Blame him and his daddy. That's the feminism I know.

because feminism itself is just a support group for women who would like to see equality for both men and women.

Why are you peddling this crap here of all places? This is what's plainly hostile if not in the intent then in the substance. Feminism is not about equality because as you just wrote:

but the reason we are called feminists is to support other women who agree that there are still issues in today's society that directly influence women's rights.

That would be a gender lobby favoring women that you pass off as simple equality. We have actually lived with feminism for our entire lives and we haven't seen anything looking like equality in it's advocacy. It comes down to getting women whatever they want often at the expense of men or boys regardless replete with conveniently constructive double standards to justify doing so. Tell me how we ended up with a women's studies center on nearly every campus and NONE FOR MEN? If someone tried to make one for men feminists would protest it. We know because men tried.

The ideology is hostile towards him as a man. It made him an enemy, a extension of the 'patriarchy', a likely rapist, likely abuser, primary aggressor, and a person to be feared.

You talk as if you somehow single handily you reformed a 60 year old (post second wave) movement or did MRA's finally pop up on your radar and you can be pro men too.

Say what you must but the last thing we need to hear how you only want equality. You want to lobby for women's interest. That's at least be close to honest but then we gotta talk about what tearing down the patriarchy entails.

[–]shitthisfuck[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]shitthisfuck[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]shitthisfuck[S] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Title	Feminism @ Crisis centers; a human rights violation?
Author	shitthisfuck
Upvotes	46
Comments	120
Date	December 22, 2013 5:47 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1tg1l3/feminism_crisis_centers_a_human_rights_violation/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminism-crisis-centers-a-human-rights-violation.1155456 https://theredarchive.com/post/1155456

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