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Double standards X-post from r/newsoftheweird

coolman1913

July 12, 2015
157 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/Groping-women-force-barmen-to-give-up-kilts-10072015.htm
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Post Information
Title Double standards X-post from r/newsoftheweird
Author

coolman1913

Upvotes 157
Comments 50
Date July 12, 2015 5:27 PM UTC
(11 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3d1424/double_standards_xpost_from_rnewsoftheweird/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/double-standards-x-post-from-rnewsoftheweird.975608
https://theredarchive.com/post/975608
Red Pill terms in post
double standardsstandards
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Comments

[–]Karthik287 49 points50 points51 points 11 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link

If the roles were reversed the men would have been arrested & sentenced within days for sticking their hands in a women's skirt.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

In the United States, the Restaurants Opportunities Centre (ROC) recently reported that both male and female restaurant workers report experiencing high rates of sexual harassment from guests (p. 13):

  • Nearly 80% of female respondents and 55% of male respondents reported experiencing some form of sexual harassment from guests

  • 59% of female and 50% of male reported receiving harassment from guests on at least a monthly basis

  • 33% of female and 25% of male reported receiving harassment from guests on at least a weekly basis

The ROC also found that restaurant staff members often ignore or tolerate that sexual harassment (p. 27):

  • 63% ignored sexual harassment from guests
  • 13% felt pressured to go along with the behaviour
  • 33% reported it to a supervisor
  • It appears that less than 1% reported it to EOCC or state agency

It's not clear if those particular numbers are for all staff or female staff [EDIT: it looks like they're for female staff], but the report states:

"the majority of women ignore the harassment, and only a small percentage report this harassment when they experience it, although a third do report harassment from customers to supervisors"

In terms of why those women rarely reported sexual harassment from guests, the ROC cites fear of negative repercussions (p. 28).

It seems pretty clear to me that many people in North America get away with sexually harassing restaurant staff, male or female. In other words, normalized sexual harassment is the standard for male and female restaurant staff, and if anything, women report experiencing more of it. Is there any evidence that the situation is significantly different in Scotland, aside from one quote from one bar owner?

[the report authors include "physical behaviour" and "assault" under "sexual harassment"; p.10]

[–]Karthik287 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Where did I say women do not get sexually harassed in the service industry? I'm saying if an incident like this involving women received media coverage the reaction to the incident would be significantly different.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

You said:

If the roles were reversed the men would have been arrested & sentenced within days for sticking their hands in a women's skirt.

I'm asking, do you have any evidence to support that claim?

The ROC report indicates that waitresses in the U.S. experience high rates of sexual harassment from customers and, due in part to fear of negative repercussions, they rarely report it -- so most men (and others) who stick their hands up waitresses' skirts probably go unpunished. I expect this is likely the case in Scotland too, but if you have any evidence to support your claim, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I suspect that in many cases, waitresses getting groped is too normalized to be considered news-worthy.

[–]Karthik287 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There is plenty of evidence to prove that even in the event of a complaint made against women who are sexually harassing men little to no action is taken. I couldn't find evidence in the service industry but here is proof regarding reported cases of sexual crimes & the reaction to them by authorities. This adequately explains the disparity in reaction towards crimes of a sexual nature towards men and women.

After controlling for the arrest offense, criminal history, and other prior characteristics men receive 63% longer sentences on average than women do. Women are also significanty liklier to avoid charges and convictions and twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

This adequately explains the disparity in reaction towards crimes of a sexual nature towards men and women.

But it does nothing to support your claim that:

If the roles were reversed the men would have been arrested & sentenced within days for sticking their hands in a women's skirt.

In contrast, the ROC report suggests that "if the roles were reversed," the female restaurant worker would also be unlikely to see her harassers / assaulters arrested and sentenced.

In the United States (and I suspect Scotland too), sexual harassment of male and female restaurant staff appears to widespread and normalized. We can condemn the harassment and assault of these men, without making unsubstantiated claims that female restaurant staff have it so much better *about role reversals.

*EDITED

[–]AlizarinWizard 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Groping someone isn't sexual harassment, it's sexual assault. It may seem counterintuitive, because we usually think of assault as violent, physically painful touch, such as hitting someone. But in the context of violating sexual boundaries, that wouldn't make much sense.

The claim u/Karthik287 made was for sexual assault (inappropriate sexual touch), and the statistics you're providing are for sexual harassment (inappropriate & discriminatory speech, hand gestures, etc.).

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

These stats apply. I agree w/ you that "sexual assault" is a more appropriate term to describe groping, but I tried to use terms consistent with the ROC report itself. They use the term "sexual harassment" throughout the report, but they indicate in their methodology section (p.10) that it includes sexual touch and assault:

The survey, to the extent possible, avoided the term sexual harassment, and asked about a range of behaviors from those three groups across four categories:

  1. verbal behaviors,
  2. behaviors delivered via media,
  3. physical behaviors and,
  4. assault

They also provide specific examples of categories of sexual behaviour from guests on page 23. Among others, those categories include:

  • Sexually suggestive looks or gestures: 27% of male respondents and 48% of female respondents reported experiencing it

  • Deliberate touching, leaning over, cornering, or pinching: 21% of male, 35% of female

  • Inappropriate kissing, patting, fondling, or groping: 11% of male, 17% of female

There are lots of other categories there too, with men reporting more in some categories and women reporting more in most. Relevant to the larger discussion of this news piece, a slightly higher proportion of men (7%) than women (5%) reported guests telling them to expose or show any part of their body.

EDIT: blech, words, punctuation

[–]flawlessqueen -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

Is that an unfair punishment for groping?

[–]VAGINA_BLOODFART 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

I think the point is that the door should swing both ways

[+]flawlessqueen -16 points-15 points-14 points 11 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

.....doesn't it already?

[–]VAGINA_BLOODFART 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

If the response to women being groped was "stop wearing skirts", people would lose their shit. But the men having to stop wearing kilts is considered the reasonable way to stop this. So no, the door doesn't swing both ways.

[+]flawlessqueen -17 points-16 points-15 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

....and where does it say that it is?

[–]kragshot 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Stop trolling.

You are being intentionally obtuse for the sake of spreading salt.

If you can't come in here with a cogent argument, then just admit that you are here to troll....

[–]SparkyWarEagle 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

http://imgur.com/TkPYiyU

[–]flawlessqueen -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

If you can't argue with a logical counter point, you must be wrong.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Quite obviously it doesn't.

[–]flawlessqueen -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How so?

[–]modernbenoni 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely not, and these women should have received the same punishment.

[+]flawlessqueen -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That would be dependent on the victims pressing charges, which they did not. It's kind of silly to allow your self to be victimized and do nothing about it and then complain to tabloids that women aren't receiving the same treatment that a man would in that situation when in reality they aren't following the same steps that a victimized women would take.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

My neighbor used to be a professional mascot (he was the backup for Sourdough Sam for the 49ers and he was SJ Sharkie for several years).

He told me that the only thing he didn't like about the job was the fact that he was never allowed to break character, but women thought nothing of sticking their hands down his pants. So he was constantly being groped on the job and couldn't really do anything about it.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Scotsman here, can confirm.

Sometimes the lassies will do it unceremoniously-literally walk up and just put their hand up your Kilt and start fondling your cock and balls.

They'll crouch down and tilt their head to look up, lift your kilt causing you to flash or stroke your thighs and inch up. Always with a smile on their face.

It's cute to begin with but quickly gets annoying.

[+][deleted] 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points38 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"We fellows are very, very aware of sexism. I think the women need to catch up."

Expecting women to follow the same social standards as men, specifically not groping a man's crotch as in this case, would be seen as sexism in the eyes of most feminists, and their enablers.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Expecting anything from women would be seen as sexist, even following laws

[–]BruceCampbell123 24 points25 points26 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

These men were asking for it because they clearly wanted that type of attention based on what they're wearing. /s

[–]WordsNotToLiveBy 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'd describe everything that is happening with women today as similar to how countries transition from 2nd world to 1st world. Just as the industrial revolution brought the western world into a tier 1, so has the women's movement of the 60's lead to the state of affairs today.

Women today make up greater percentage of the work force. They have much larger purchasing power, and they are acting much more liberated. What they are doing is somewhat similar to how men did after the industrial revolution. When prosperity was in abundance, women were generally still controlled by society to be more measured and to uphold the role they've had throughout history. However, it was much less restrictive for men.

Women are now breaking out. They are showing signs of being the aggressors. They are now mimicking past male behaviors. They are committing much more crime than they ever have in the past. The courts and laws haven't adjusted accordingly yet, but the behavior of women is changing exponentially and society's tether that grounded them is no longer there.

But since all things are cyclical, there may be a point when the pendulum swings back. Just don't expect it to be any time soon. They've only just begun.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kPD4LtA1vo

[–]kurtu5 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Solution. Wear some sort of underwear that shows content from rotten.com or whatever the modernday equivalent is.

'Are you a true scotsman.... OMFG a beheaded baby!'

[–]Doulich 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

#teach women not to grope

[–]cuteman 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"The first few times it is funny. But when it is really busy and everyone has to work fast and hard, and your hands are full of glasses, you feel quite vulnerable.

"You are thinking, ‘are you going to get broken glasses, or is your kilt going to get lifted up again?’ They see it as a bit of fun, but it is a bit of an embarrassment."

HMM

The first few times it is funny

it is a bit of an embarrassment

Funny? An embarrassment? That's sexual assault brotha

[–]Qui-Gon_Booze 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"It may seem funny but it is serious, too – the women are sticking their hands up their kilts. Can you imagine if I went into a restaurant and stuck my hand up a girl’s skirt? I would be taken to the police station and rightly so. We fellows are very, very aware of sexism. I think the women need to catch up."

Some great quotes here.

[–]Ninja_Wizard_69 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

We should start a movement where we wear kilts and shame women for groping us

[–]ashlaaaaay 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yup sexual assault, really weird and wacky. Gee whiz, kilts, huh? Hilarious. /s

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Hootananny"??

[–]Keiichi81 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

/r/nottheonion has a very refreshing outlook on this article. I was surprised at how many people were calling out the double-standard as well as offering anecdotes of their own about similar incidents they'd witnessed/experienced.

Ramsay McGhee, of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, said no employee of either sex should put up with harassment at work.

"It seems these guys have found a pragmatic and commonsense solution to an irritating problem," said Mr McGhee, the association’s area manager for Inverness and the Highlands.

Can you imagine if the genders were reversed, with female staff being forced to switch to pants after having drunk men putting their hands up their skirts, and the people claiming to care about sexism praised it as "a common sense solution to an irritating problem?" I mean, this really is telling the men that they were asking for it because of how they were dressed, no?

[–]thegreyhoundness -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just girls being girls. Right? I'm sure these enlightened feminists (aka basic bitches, I know the type. Aka woo girls) would never see the hypocrisy of being told to behave and then refusing to. They just want to have a bit of fun...

[+]flawlessqueen -8 points-7 points-6 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

The women who assault those men aren't feminists.

[–]ulthrant82 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Did you seriously throw down a No True Scotsman? I'm a little unsure if that was the point or if you were being serious. Either way, that's hilarious!

[–]flawlessqueen -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

All women aren't feminists?

[–]ulthrant82 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And thank god for that.

[+]flawlessqueen -8 points-7 points-6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It really is a shame, honestly. The world could use a few more level headed feminists and a few less MRA's who don't know how to defend themselves and cry rape when women hit on them.

[–]TechnoSam_Belpois 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No one's claiming that they're feminists. They are just influenced by feminism to think that they can do whatever they want.

I know I'm feeding a troll, but whatever.

[–]flawlessqueen -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

...and where in the article does it say that the women groping them are feminists?

[–]TechnoSam_Belpois 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No one's claiming that they're feminists. They are just influenced by feminism to think that they can do whatever they want.

I know I'm feeding a troll, but whatever.

[+][deleted] 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]flawlessqueen -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What double standards concerning sexual assault on women and men are there? The men in this article are crying that the women that allegedly groped them aren't rotting in prison when the men did nothing to report or seek punishment for the women that allegedly groped them.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Where does it say they are?

[–]flawlessqueen 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's the question that I'm asking. Everyone else commenting on this thread is quick to freak out about "feminists assaulting men" but no where in the article it says that they are feminists.

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