Has anyone else noticed that MensRights has changed?

[–]BabylonDrifter 18 points19 points20 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Alanna 5 points6 points7 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Anytime "rape" comes up in the feminisms subreddit, I do not miss an opportunity to point out the damage false rape claims make. Anytime sexism is alleged in here or feminisms, I often try to bring some grounding to the discussion by pointing out how it may not be sexism. Anytime father's rights or abortion come up in feminisms, I point out that it takes two to make a baby, that men should have as much right to "choice" as women. When sexist comments are made by women redditors, that men should shut up, or should back off, or should keep it "in their pants," I reverse the genders to drive home how offensive those comments are.

Don't tell me to nut up or shut up. I often feel on reddit, concerning men's rights, I'm fighting a battle on two fronts-- one against the feministas, but one against you guys to prove I'm really on your side on these issues.

Trust has to start somewhere. Look at my comment history. I'm not a mouthpiece for anyone; I try to think for myself. Many women out there are trying to help you. Many more are just unaware. I don't deny there are man-haters out there, or money-grubbing bitches every bit as bad as some of you have seen. But we're not all like that.

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Agreed.

Women did not get equal rights (and beyond) by hating on men. In fact, their movement NEEDED men's support on order to advance. They needed to appeal to men's sense of fair play in order to recruit their sympathies.

Similarly, if we are to restore some semblance of equal political rights, we will need women's help. I do not think we can go it alone, and I do not think we can afford to antagonize potential female allies.

In fact, fewer women self-identify as feminist than ever. They have seen that movement cause great harm to women. We must offer them a better alternative.

But if we revile women (sluts, whores, cunts), then we will repel them from our cause. If we curse them (fuck off, die, go to hell), then we will repel men who don't want to associate with woman-haters.

Men have suffered greatly at the hands of a feminist legal system, and a culture than denigrates males. If we are to reverse this, we will need all the help we can get.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 16 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

It's not that we don't want support from women, it's just that we don't find it acceptable for women to attempt to modify the Mens Rights movement to suit their needs.

no minority (women, gays, blacks, Jews) has ever won a battle for equality alone.

if men came into a feminist group and tried to mold them into some suzy-housewife-book-club...they'd be met with hostility

if straight people joined a LGBT group and tried to make them adopt a straight persons view of how LGBTs should be...they'd be met with hostility

if white people joined the black panthers and tried to get them to adopt a more white-friendly message...they'd be met with hostility.

jews? I've never heard of an 'equal rights' group for jews...aside from nazis, I can't think of an appropriate analogue.

I'm not saying you guys shouldn't have a guy-only space, but make it /r/men or /r/machismos or something.

I think the subreddit description sums it up nicely

For men and supporters of men

[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

It's not that we don't want support from women, it's just that we don't find it acceptable for women to attempt to modify the Mens Rights movement to suit their needs.

That attitude is predicated on an assumption that ALL women are the enemy, and that only men can be true men's rights supporters. I don't think that's true.

if men came into a feminist group and tried to mold them into some suzy-housewife-book-club...they'd be met with hostility

I haven't seen anyone do that here in mensrights.

if straight people joined a LGBT group and tried to make them adopt a straight persons view of how LGBTs should be...they'd be met with hostility

I did for a while try to convince the LBGT community on Facebook that they should be a little less pissy. I got a fair bit of support, but it didn't seem to do much good. I eventually got discouraged and wandered off. I'm not sure what you mean by "a straight person's view of how LGBTs should be," but I wasn't met with hostility.

if white people joined the black panthers and tried to get them to adopt a more white-friendly message...they'd be met with hostility.

I think the Black Panthers are as much a part of the problem as the Ku Klux Klan. Not a good example, IMO.

jews? I've never heard of an 'equal rights' group for jews...aside from nazis, I can't think of an appropriate analogue.

Closest would probably be the Anti-Defamation League.

But I get the idea.

There are ongoing debates in here about what exactly your agenda should be. There are lots of valid men's rights issues: divorce/custody issues, domestic violence, or justice system bias (including false rape claims) or media messages, or gender issues. What should be on the table, what should be a priority, these are valid discussions that I believe women who support men's rights should have a voice in. Obviously, individual men, and men's rights groups, can ignore us if they want. But, other than the few real loonies in here who seriously think that all the women in here are secretly subversive feminists out to hijack and/or kill the men's rights movement for their own evil ends, I honestly don't understand where this hostility is coming from.

I think the subreddit description sums it up nicely

"For men and supporters of men"

Yes, it does. I am a supporter of men. Just because I don't have a penis makes me no less so.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

That attitude is predicated on an assumption that ALL women are the enemy, and that only men can be true men's rights supporters. I don't think that's true.

...no, it's not. It's predicated on the assumption that this is a movement for men. Claiming that I think women are 'the enemy' is EXACTLY the sort of manipulative behavior I'm talking about.

I think the Black Panthers are as much a part of the problem as the Ku Klux Klan. Not a good example, IMO.

you may be confusing 'the black panther party' (a movement fighting for equality) with 'the new black panther party' (an unrelated hate group which was actually sued by the originally black panthers).

Closest would probably be the Anti-Defamation League.

ADL presents itself as an organization for all civil-rights...even though, in practice, they're silent on most non-jewish-related issues.

There are lots of valid men's rights issues: divorce/custody issues, domestic violence, or justice system bias (including false rape claims) or media messages, or gender issues.

and one of those 'issues' is the demonization of any man who doesn't adopt the persona crafted for them by our feminized culture...i.e. claiming a man views all women as the enemy when they say they don't want to be manipulated.

I believe women who support men's rights should have a voice in.

When you phrase it that way, how could I disagree...without being labelled as anti-female? The fact remains that this is a movement for men. While we're perfectly happy to have women supporters, they are outsiders. When they level criticism, it's not self-examination, it's an attack from an outsider.

I am a supporter of men. Just because I don't have a penis makes me no less so.

In this specific context...it does. You see the problems we face...yet you will never have to face them because you're a woman. As such, your support can ONLY EVER come from a place of sympathy...not anger/fear/personal experience/etc. While we really do appreciate the support of women, this is our movement, not theirs.

If you're looking to criticize issues related to MR...there's always /r/equality. If you're looking to support MR, this is the place for you. But please note: the assumption is that this is a 'safe place for men' (which was the previous wording on the description). It's viewed as a place where we can say what we want without having to censor ourselves for the benefit of the PC crowd...where we don't have to worry about a woman claiming we view all women as the enemy simply because we express an opinion other than 'women can do whatever they want to us because they're awesome and we suck'.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Wow. An "outsider?" So if my husband or teenage son gets falsely accused of rape, that doesn't affect me? If my husband had had a first wife and we were paying unfair alimony payments to her because she is a money-grubbing whore, that doesn't affect me? If my (hypothetical) son grows up with the message that all he deserves is a shrewish bitch who nags at him constantly and for whom nothing is ever good enough, because that's all he sees on TV, okay, well, that doesn't affect me directly, but I certainly don't want that for him. If I were to suddenly find out, 31 years after the fact, that the man I have always known as my father was not, in fact, biologically my father, that doesn't affect me?

No, none of those things would affect me as much as the man in question (except the father thing-- I think that's an issue that hurts the entire family), and I'm not saying they would. But to say that I will never have to face these issues because I'm a woman is not true. I have faced some of them, and continue to face them now. The details are personal, so I'd prefer not to get into them. But this is a deeply felt thing that goes well beyond just sympathy.

However, if you honestly feel this movement is for men only, then that kind of ends any further debate right there. Labelling me an outsider effectively cuts me off from any further meaningful contribution beyond cheerleader.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Wow. An "outsider?" So if my husband or teenage son gets falsely accused of rape, that doesn't affect me? If my husband had had a first wife and we were paying unfair alimony payments to her because she is a money-grubbing whore, that doesn't affect me? If my (hypothetical) son grows up with the message that all he deserves is a shrewish bitch who nags at him constantly and for whom nothing is ever good enough, because that's all he sees on TV, okay, well, that doesn't affect me directly, but I certainly don't want that for him. If I were to suddenly find out, 31 years after the fact, that the man I have always known as my father was not, in fact, biologically my father, that doesn't affect me?

directly? no...and that's why you're an outsider.

But to say that I will never have to face these issues because I'm a woman is not true.

But yeah, it is true. You don't have to face ANY of those issues directly...your 'suffering' comes from seeing those you love suffer. It's completely different.

However, if you honestly feel this movement is for men only, then that kind of ends any further debate right there.

Only? no. Primarily? yes.

Labelling me an outsider effectively cuts me off from any further meaningful contribution beyond cheerleader.

not true at all. It just means that it's not your place to try and make us a woman's-rights group. If you want to contribute, great...but intentionally misrepresenting what we say to make us look anti-woman is not a valuable contribution...it's mental coercion.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

But yeah, it is true. You don't have to face ANY of those issues directly...your 'suffering' comes from seeing those you love suffer. It's completely different.

In the examples I cited, there are several cases where it does directly affect me, not just as a sympathetic spectator. If my husband had to pay alimony, that's my money coming out of my household that could be going to us or his children with me. If he loses his job, has to hire a lawyer because of false rape charges, again, that's our money too. If he godforbid goes to prison, I effectively lose my husband-- an unthinkable emotional and physical loss, to say nothing of financial, which seems petty but practically speaking can't be ignored. And if my mom had duped my dad into raising me as his own even though I wasn't, I don't see how that doesn't at least psychologically affect me as much as him. I'm not looking for sympathy here or anything or trying to grab onto the victimhood card. I'm just trying to point out why I have a substantial personal stake in many of these issues. As I said, with many of them, not as much as the man, but that doesn't mean I don't have any or that my opinion on such things should be marginalized.

It just means that it's not your place to try and make us a woman's-rights group.

How the fuck am I trying to make you a women's rights group??? Are you even reading my posts?????

but intentionally misrepresenting what we say to make us look anti-woman is not a valuable contribution

When have I ever done this??? Look, if you're not going to address me as an individual, we're done here.

[–]XFDRaven -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Even if this thread is old, it needs a little addition.

That attitude is predicated on an assumption that ALL women are the enemy, and that only men can be true men's rights supporters. I don't think that's true.

This would only be true if a girl has been completely untouched by popular society. Any girl who has been raised with the modern Feminist message has been conditioned in such a way that she becomes a natural enemy. The issue you've been attempting to dance around is the social power of women, in these subreddits, Women have no social power beyond their downvote bridages when they flood out of /2X.

I haven't seen anyone do that here in mensrights.

You haven't been paying attention. There have been many instances of the /2X crowd pushing for their ideas of men upon the men of this subreddit. Rarely is it explicit, the methods of feminism have never been explicit and have always been maliciously operating indirectly. There are more ways to do such things than simply stating "don't act that way."

Yes, it does. I am a supporter of men. Just because I don't have a penis makes me no less so.

What have you done to enable you to brand yourself a supporter of men? You can support men you like, who have jumped through hoops that you establish to fulfill whatever social norms you think they should carry but none of that makes you a supporter of men's rights. Half-heartedly saying you're a men's rights supporter as a Token gesture is meaningless and at best serves to get you a few points with Feminist peers to promote propaganda that feminists are Egalitarian when they are anything but.

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[–]DocTomoe 4 points5 points6 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Not an advocacy group?

Proof of point: Taken from the 2X main page, today, 14:30 GMT

Life with the seedy men from the City
"Submission": a powerful 10-min film depicting the mistreatment of Muslim women living in Islamic societies - produced by Theo Van Gogh in 2004 (who was assassinated for it 2 years later). Opinions/reactions welcome. Trigger warning (youtube.com)
Agora, film about Hypatia, considered the first notable woman in mathematics, and a Christian uprising. Recommended.
"Friends With Benefits" Might Also Equal "Friends With Risks" -- According to a University of Iowa study, couples involved in "friends with benefits" situations are more likely to contract STDs, as they're more likely to have multiple partners (jezebel.com)
Georgia Baptist Convention considering cutting off Georgia church because woman is co-pastor, citing biblical edict "a woman is not to usurp authority over the man"
Questioning your partner about masturbation habits. (self.TwoXChromosomes)
Soon it will be the most women in space at the same time. (msnbc.msn.com)
Software developer misogyny fail (holzman.livejournal.com)
Guys acting like girls. (there's a girls acting like guys too) (buzzfeed.com)
The Myth of Mean Girls (nytimes.com)
Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism - Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class (feministing.com)
"Turbo Heather:" hilarious parody of gendered toy commercials (youtube.com)
How do you know when to interfere? (self.TwoXChromosomes)
What are your thought on the Rapelay controversy (self.TwoXChromosomes)
Dear Abby takes on guys who tell women to smile - Considers some harassers, others social misfits or romantic stumblers; "anyone who instructs a stranger to smile does so because they feel entitled to exert their power over another person’s private emotions" (washingtoncitypaper.com)
National Cleavage Day (en.wikipedia.org)
Importing Sexism – old-school from Mexico (self.TwoXChromosomes)
Muscle Milk: who cares if you're stupid, as long as you're hot? (youtube.com)
Simply priceless lines out of the 1963 Edition of "The Seventeen Book of Etiquette and Entertaining." (self.TwoXChromosomes)
I know the Peaches Geldof story has shown up in various sub-reddits, but I'm curious as to how you ladies feel about it from a "guy posting someone else's naked pictures" perspective. (dailymail.co.uk)

[–]Maschalismos 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DocTomoe -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So, it's not too bad because there is an even more militant group out there?

How about this: This is a group about what interest a certain subset of men, namely those who have been - rightfully or not - feeling mistreated by the women of their respective lifes. Some small examples:

Fathers who have lost their children because their wife decided to engage in exmatrial affairs and was awarded 70% of his life savings and the children for those breaches of contract.
Guys who were put down in an job application because there was a women who had to be hired because of some arbitrary quota, regardless of the fact they searched a surgeon and she was an internist.
Chaps who cannot see the logic they are "good enough" to get drafted and killed in some country they hardly ever heard of, but women are too good for this.
Dudes who are sick of being openly called "potential rapists", as if sexual violence was an inevitable trait of the Y chromosome and would under no circumstances emerge from women.
Men who had to fight hardships set upon them by an misandrist teacher which nearly destroyed their life.
etc. etc. blah.

I doubt there are figures in the Mens Rights movement that are comparable to the likes of Mary Daly ("If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an 'evolutionary' process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males") or Valerie Solanas ("Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation and destroy the male sex."). None of us that I am aware of are actively seeking a genocide on the female gender.

I don't think MensRights the male equivalent fo femisism. It's more of a civil rights thing.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

First off, feminisms is not a "more militant" group. Well, they are, but that's not the point. Again, 2X is not an advocacy group. They're a support group. Feminisms is an advocacy group. It's like comparing NOW to a breast-cancer survivor circle. They're both going to be composed of women, and discuss women's issues, but their purpose is entirely different. That doesn't mean there won't be some overlap of things talked about.

You're comparing the core men's rights issues to the most extreme, messed up women out there. I've heard some pretty vitriolic things about women in here-- generalized to all women, or justified by saying there are so few "good ones" that they may as well not even exist. I have never heard anyone on reddit even mention, let alone support, either of those names or a full-on genocide against males.

I'm not going to bother getting into the whole first wave-second wave-third wave crap or the difference between gender feminists and issue feminists or any of that. I'm not trying to get into a hair-splitting argument on the definition, agenda, or shortcomings of the feminism movement. My only point at the beginning of all this was, comparing 2X to Men's Rights is not apt. The feminisms subreddit would seem to be the male analogue, because that's where the female gender advocacy issues are posted.

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[–]weirdboobs 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Let me introduce you to a little thing called "social networking." Not just networking, but social networking. What goes on here is people post stories, comments, perspectives, questions, feedback, and other people can reply. Some may be topics of relevance or interest to you, some may not. If I cared about everything on reddit, I wouldn't leave the house. Therefore I read things that intrigue me, I skip things that don't, and a fair amount I am ambivalent about but I'm bored enough to look at anyway.

So the answer is: (crazily enough!) YES! Crazily enough, I DID know that some people wouldn't give a shit about how I felt! But I also took a chance that some people might and...hey....look at that...some people did care! And even discussed some stuff relative to the post.

My advice (now, remember, I'm not flattering myself to think that you care about my opinion, but I offer it just in case) is this: next time you see a post you don't care about? Just move on. Taking the time to respond to a post you don't give a shit about seems a bad use of your time.

[–]Maschalismos 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]weirdboobs 3 points4 points5 points 16 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I would like to get sarcastic and say that it shouldn't be surprising that in an open, very popular website, a female could wander in and give her two cents...but I'll refrain because I do understand to a degree.

However. Just today I heard about a friend's boyfriend of two years breaking up with her an hour after she was told she might have cancer. Did we do some over the top venting about men, saying things we don't really mean? Of course. But we did it privately, because if I said in a mixed gender group, "Ugh, men can be such fucking assholes," I would expect to get some anger from the men in the group. And rightfully so. Even if it was just to blow steam off, even if it was just to make my friend feel better, that would be offensive and unfair to whatever men were witnessing my outburst, and they would be justified in calling me on it.

So don't edit yourselves if you don't feel like it. But when you're in public, whether it is in person or on a social site like reddit, be aware that input from all sides is going to come whether you like it or not. And if you don't give a shit about what I or other females have to say, just ignore it.

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In the beginning of this reddit, pn6 was pretty extreme in his views and rhetoric(He's since cooled off, and is posting under another account), and this reddit also drew a lot more of the extreme people. I've been here since the beginning on another account. There was quite a few events that led to this subreddit really mellowing out on the extreme views, and finally becoming probably one of the better forums for mensrights I've seen.

It was more of a gradual shift from the extreme anti-woman sentiments from the vocal posters to a more political and intellectual view. Some of the people who hate feminism/women in general(some with pretty good reason, imo) now understand to cool the rhetoric and emotions in their posts, and speak plainly instead of exaggerating or making broad, sweeping statements. For the most part, the people who wanted a woman-hating circlejerk(Like the manhood101 retards) instead of real debate or teaching people about the problems have left or don't post anymore.

If you want, I can look back and post up a summary of what happened over the history of the /mensrights subreddit.

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Title	Has anyone else noticed that MensRights has changed?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	19
Comments	109
Date	April 1, 2010 2:59 AM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bkysw/has_anyone_else_noticed_that_mensrights_has/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/has-anyone-else-noticed-that-mensrights-has.1050047 https://theredarchive.com/post/1050047

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