I want to discuss a bit

bufedad · 2021-01-06T17:29:05+00:00

I’ve seen a lot of "antifeminisme" on this subreddit and I have to disagree, feminism is a good thing

Hear that guys? Fighting against male rape victims being recognized as rape victims is a "GOOD" thing. Fighting against equal parenting rights for men is a "GOOD" thing.

duhhhh · 2021-01-06T18:30:28+00:00

I'll post the same examples I've given the last four trolls. Let's start with rape.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. /r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years.

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i0j2g9/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i6sdli/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iavcnv/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

And it isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

Are these feminists hiding female rapists, hiding male victims, and blocking efforts to make rape laws gender neutral not feminists?

higgs456 · 2021-01-06T18:15:13+00:00

Almost everyone who is an MRA wants men and women to be put on equal stage, we just acknowledge that feminism doesn't actually do what it claims to want to do regarding equality when it's confronted. Feminism is at its core and in most of its expressions an anti-male perspective that fosters paranoia about men's actions and beliefs and has no actual interest in helping men do anything or in any regard. When it professes to want to help men, it presents men in grotesque caricature, blames us for our own problems, and says we should see ourselves as such and destroy our masculinity to fix ourselves.

Unrestrained feminism will guarantee men have minimal rights where women are granted preferential treatment for everything, and at the same time claim whenever someone brings up any unfairness that it is only for equality and then bring up a paranoiac and false theory of patriarchy to justify all their unequal actions and shame any dissent into silence.

Lady-Lummox · 2021-01-06T18:29:32+00:00

Feminist misandry.

Feminism is inherently anti-male.

Sexual abuse of men and boys part 1.

Sexual abuse of men and boys part 2.

Sexual abuse of men and boys part 3.

Sexual abuse of men and boys part 4.

Debunking Feminist ideas of male privilege part 1.

Debunking Feminist ideas of male privilege part 2.

Karen Straughan's response to, "Not all Feminists."

Nobleone11 · 2021-01-06T21:50:36+00:00

feminism is a good thing, some posts say that it’s a "hate stuff thing"

"The history of mankind is a history of repeated injuries and usurpation on the part of man toward woman, having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over her." -The Declaration Of Sentiments"

Scorning men, scapegoating them as villains, was by design since 1848.

The second point I see a lot is female rape is as big as male rape, now rape is a serious crime that can ruine a person’s life (that’s why we should take rape allegations seriously and not make fun of it, that’s why a lot of rape victims male or female are afraid of saying it) but in the US there are 7.7610058 times more female rape than women.

Than about women’s abusing men or straight out murdering them, same, according to this source: https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/ women experience about 1/4 women are abused and 1/7 men are, that’s a pretty big difference.

Classic "Women have it worse" deflection tactic. Do you realize what sub-reddit you're in? Got to have balls of steel to pull this in a place where male victims of domestic violence, rape, and false rape accusations congregate.

My point isn’t that, what this subreddit seems to think feminism is, that we should put men and women to the same stage, like if you want to make bill gates and some random dude equal, we shouldn’t give 10’000 bucks to both

You should work on your English because I haven't a clue what you're communicating with this mangled sentence.

Oh and btw have you ever bed insulted, someone ever said something sexist to you or almost sexually assaulted you in the street because of your sexe ? I haven’t, all my friends haven’t but girls have to deal with this a lot.

My friend, I had been subjecting to such reprehensible treatment from the opposite sex when I was young that you'd thought I was making it up. Trust me, it isn't only girls who experience sexism, bullying and torment.

Now let’s talk.

This isn't a conversation. It's a one-way lecture from someone who acts like they're well educated on the subject but when subject to scrutiny reveals themselves to be clueless.

Greg_W_Allan · 2021-01-07T00:31:43+00:00

Oh and btw have you ever bed insulted, someone ever said something sexist to you or almost sexually assaulted you

Almost sexually assaulted?

I was raped as a seven and eight year old. It was legal because a woman did it and I was then excluded from taxpayer funded services for twenty five years because I'm male.

Governments in my country made the mistake of giving all the resources for service provision to feminist groups who promptly did what feminists always do - exclude. One of the consequences is thousands of suicides among male victims. Feminists will never be able to cleanse that blood from their hands.

Bojack35 · 2021-01-06T17:54:45+00:00

I dont think feminism is bad in the sense of identifying harmful gender roles /stereotypes.

I do think feminism has it wrong in blaming these roles/stereotypes on 'patriachy' and implicitly men then proposing dismantling 'patriarchy' as a solution.

I do think feminism has a very biased approach to gender disparity which is focused solely on womens issues. Women do face problems on account of their gender' so do men. Women do have advantages on account of their gender' so do men. Often these pros/cons are two sides of the same issue. By only focusing on the female side it is not only an ineffective way of pursuing equality it naturally results in a sexist attitude towards equality that is harmful to men.

In terms of the points you made..

Yes rape is a serious crime. However comparing how much each gender is raped is rather useless when rape is defined as 'forced penetration.' Simply put if a woman held a knife to my throat and forced me to have sex with her it would not be classified as rape. To truly compare you have to look at sexual assault' not use rape as a byword for sexual assault when it is really a specific type of sexual assault.

Comparing all sexual assault it drops to about 1/3 male victims and 2/3 female victims. So yes women are more effected but not at the ratio you say. The solution to reducing sexual assault does not lie in demonising one gender or 'teach men not to rape' it lies in looking at the other factors at play and mitigating those where possible.

Women commit more child abuse than men again at around 1/3 men 2/3 women perpetrators. The solution to reducing child abuse isn't to demonize women or 'teach women not to abuse kids' it's to look at the other factors at play and mitigate those where possible.

On domestic violence yes there are more reported cases where women are the victim. They also receive disproportionately more funding than men - in the UK it was roughly 1.2million women and 600k men in 2019. The funding for domestic violence shelters is over 95% directed towards women. So call is 65% of the victims receive 95% of the support the other 35% get 5%. It seems the institutional bias is working against men here.

In any case women being more the victim of a crime is a valid thing for feminism to draw attention to. But when men are overwhelmingly the victims of violent crime and pretty much every crime except for sexual assault there is silence...

This is why feminism is not an equality movement but a womens rights movement. That's fine but it is selective in the statistics it uses and simply wrong in both its assessment for the causes of disparities and its proposed solutions.

If you want me to provide links for any of the stats quoted I will do - they are all available on the UK office of national statistics website.

tenchineuro · 2021-01-06T18:05:46+00:00

The second point I see a lot is female rape is as big as male rape,

I doubt it, thanx to feminism females can't commit the act of rape at all, much less rape a man.

Is this one of the 'good' things that draws you to feminism?

Than about women’s abusing men or straight out murdering them, same, according to this source: https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/ women experience about 1/4 women are abused and 1/7 men are, that’s a pretty big difference.

Also thanx to feminism (VAWA) women cannot commit DV at all, there is no concept of a female abuser. So what can I tell you, any numbers are simply meaningless.

Another thing you must be proud of is that the feminist written VAWA plus the feminist written Duluth model literally requires police to arrest male DV victims of females. The reasoning is that the woman is probably an abuse victim acting out against her abuser. As a result, male DV victims of females get counted as abusers. The numbers are fucked.

And you are totally fucked if you think numbers should make any difference at all. Does not the state have an obligation to support victims regardless of their sex? Obviously you think that fraudulent stats are enough to deny male victims any aid, and probably also to jail them.

You should talk more to people who have a different opinion.

No, you should learn what the issues are. Then again, it appears that the feminist hate group is something that appeals to you. May I suggest that for lots of upvotes you post to r|feminism or r|menslib?

d_nijmegen · 2021-01-06T17:39:36+00:00

Again with the no true Scotsman

EmirikolWoker · 2021-01-06T17:29:53+00:00

One day I'm going to get tired of copy-pasting this:

The foundational principals of all flavours of feminism are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for them to accurately describe reality. Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class.

Egalitarian values, and mens rights advocacy in particular, is innately antifeminist.

NoMoreMisterMaybe · 2021-01-06T19:11:21+00:00

The concern trolls are up in force again.

If you believe feminism is the answer, go to menslib. Not here.

greope · 2021-01-06T17:39:00+00:00

The whole thing about girls experiencing sexual harassment is a bit overblown. Yeah, it definitely exists, but I’ve never been sexually harassed, and to my knowledge none of my friends have. The whole thing about women experiencing mind blowing amounts of sexual harassment, and that EVERY woman has experienced it, is not true whatsoever.

The whole feminism thing, yeah, I agree with you on that somewhat. MRAs use the same tactics to demonize feminists as feminists use to demonize MRAs. The hypocrisy is astounding.

JewishAnomaly · 2021-01-16T21:13:31+00:00

Here's what we learned: progressives don't learn and they're kinda stupid, too.

Title	I want to discuss a bit
Author	Lucs_11
Upvotes	0
Comments	77
Date	January 6, 2021 5:21 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/krse70/i_want_to_discuss_a_bit/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-want-to-discuss-a-bit.836595 https://theredarchive.com/post/836595

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