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Honey Badger Radio: Rape Culture

typhonblue · 2014-03-27T16:49:57+00:00

We all know the score. Rape. That most evil of all crimes, a fate worse then death, the most appalling thing one person can inflict on another. Well,...

typhonblue

March 27, 2014

25 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Title	Honey Badger Radio: Rape Culture
Author	typhonblue
Upvotes	25
Comments	57
Date	March 27, 2014 4:49 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/21imtk/honey_badger_radio_rape_culture/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/honey-badger-radio-rape-culture.1002305 https://theredarchive.com/post/1002305

Comments

[–]rightsbot 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SpecialFester 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]knowless 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SpecialFester 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]knowless 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So listened to a bit, sad i missed it live, but i think one thing you guys were missing was intergenerational understandings, if things can be reduced beyond the artificial boundaries of the immediate understandings of your family and/or peers, and instead synthesized (i know that makes me a racist/nationalist) then the irrational singular ideological perspective starts to lack sense.

The entire point of destructive and cultish ideologies is to deconstruct your sense of self by framing those closest to you as the monster you must admonish. This isn't to say that there aren't people seriously dealing with very real threats to their safety by those closest to them, but that framing it as the basis of your ideology might very well destabilize the entire framework which allows us to converse at all.

Sorry for mansplaining, i obviously didn't Listen to it all.

[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 12 years ago (159 children) | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue[S] 14 points15 points16 points 12 years ago (143 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (79 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (74 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (73 children) | Copy Link

Well, the mens movement has its own interpretation of slutwalk, victim blaming and rape culture. Its largely misinterpretations and theories based on trying to figure out and make sense of the sound bites and the noise coming from the most hyperbolic of SJWs - people calling us victim blamers and so on.

When its pointed out that the mens movements interpretations are inaccurate there is disbelief and mobbing and attacking - exactly the same sort of thing that happens on Manboobz, ftb or feminist areas when mra's try to give accurate information that contradicts the popular strawmen.

There is also "agency theory" dogma.

The reasoning behind "don't blame the victim" is a trauma therapy model, the military use it, its used for men, and female rape victims.

The person with PTSD presents with irrational feelings of responsibility, self blame and shame for what happened to them, which are brought to normal levels in order for the person to move out of their ptsd and regain agency, hence "dont blame the victim".

Now, the mens movement doesn't know this, and has decided that its actually about taking away agency instead of giving it back, and that the mens movement needs to argue in favour of showing these people their "personal responsibility" in what happened to them and that don't blame the victim is a movement against taking personal safety precautions.

Another thing is the movement is convinced that "rape culture" is the claim that the culture is openly and knowingly cheering on rapists, its not.

But despite the absurdity of these beliefs and the fact that they are flatly contradicted when you actually dig around at the source and try to make sense of the hyperbole surrounding these things, we want to believe them and attack people that say otherwise.

If someone, say myself - points out that these beliefs are incorrect, you get this "ideological policing". I'm all of a sudden an outsider and a sheep, because I have information that contradicts the firmly held and absurd beliefs and theories that we have built up around these things.

So, we are engaging in the same types of behaviour that you find in other dogmatic groups and weave complicated theories together, instead of actually getting the facts.

[–]typhonblue[S] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago* (51 children) | Copy Link

Or perhaps the men's movement believes "blaming the victim" rhetoric is misapplied to crime prevention advice that is intended to prevent someone from becoming a victim in the first place. There should be a clear separation between what's appropriate in a therapeutic setting and what's appropriate as a crime prevention strategy.

No, the mens movement doesn't know it comes from PTSD therapy and is designed to give agency back. The mens movement thinks its some absurd argument against agency and safety.

What the Toronto cop we initially came out in support of, said was inappropriate and inaccurate in either setting, feminism is operating something of a scorched earth policy with the old rape prevention advice and their new stuff is actually better.

Plus, its inappropriate for the men's rights movement to be involved in rape prevention advice, its only the white knight reflex, the misguided belief that women need paternalist advice that everyone gets anyway and the misguided belief that there is a movement against personal safety.

Then what is it when feminists say that our culture is a culture that condones or promotes rape?

They aren't making the claim that its directly or even consciously, a lot of what they are pointing to are similar things we are pointing to happening to men.

Granted that the more hyperbolic sjw's call everything they don't like victim blaming, but that's sort of beside the point.

[–]typhonblue[S] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

No, the mens movement doesn't know it comes from PTSD therapy and is designed to give agency back.

This is irrelevant to the conversation regarding crime prevention tips.

What the Toronto cop we initially came out in support of, said was inappropriate and inaccurate in either setting

The original statement was "if women don't want attention, don't dress like sluts."

Plus, its inappropriate for the men's rights movement to be involved in rape prevention advice

That's why most of the men's rights discussion regarding feminist rape culture has nothing to do crime prevention tips, but the fact that feminists manufacture "rape culture" by minimizing male victimhood and blaming rape on masculinity.

a lot of what they are pointing to are similar things we are pointing to happening to men.

What we point out is happening to men is 1) mostly perpetuated by feminists themselves 2) doesn't happen to women by any stretch of the imagination.

People don't believe that women categorically can't be raped; or that the rape of men is more important or widespread than the rape of women; or that female victims are less important; or that women rape men in order to prove their womanhood; or that toxic femininity is where rape comes from; or that women as a group rape in order to maintain their social power over men.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

This is irrelevant to the conversation regarding crime prevention tips.

No, its central. The mens movement only inserted itself into rape prevention tips, because it didn't understand don't blame the victim and thought it was an argument against taking care.

To this day we are acting like a wing of men can stop rape and arguing about rape prevention tips,"personal responsibility" and don't blame the victim.

The original statement was "if women don't want attention, don't dress like sluts."

In response to rape advocacy groups asking about rape, and is inaccurate and inappropriate in therapy and criime prevention.

That's why most of the men's rights discussion regarding feminist rape culture has nothing to do crime prevention tips,

No, sinch 2011 most of it has been about crime prevention tips.

but the fact that feminists manufacture "rape culture" by minimizing male victimhood and blaming rape on masculinity.

This should be front and center, but most if it has been about crime prevention tip.

What we point out is happening to men is 1) mostly perpetuated by feminists themselves 2) doesn't happen to women by any stretch of the imagination.

We point out that people tend to look at what a man did wrong to be abused by his GF, how shame stops them coming forward, how male sexuality is viewed as machine link and always ready.

People don't believe that women categorically can't be raped; or that the rape of men is more important or widespread than the rape of women; or that female victims are less important; or that women rape men in order to prove their womanhood; or that toxic femininity is where rape comes from; or that women as a group rape in order to maintain their social power over men.

I didn't it was note for note identical.

or that toxic femininity is where rape comes from;

They say rape comes from the idea male sexuality is assertive and machine like, while female is passive and coy and or that rapists can find it easier operating with these beliefs there.

Toxic masculinity is about the idea that men suppress their emotions, "man up", can ask for help and so on, and how that can manifest as problematic (mainly for women, including rape).

[–]typhonblue[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

because it didn't understand don't blame the victim and thought it was an argument against taking care.

It is an argument about taking care, because feminists direct at crime prevention tips.

In response to rape advocacy groups asking about rape, and is inaccurate and inappropriate in therapy and criime prevention.

In reference to street harassment from what I remember. Do you have evidence that it was in reference to rape?

No, sinch 2011 most of it has been about crime prevention tips.

Nonsense. I've created a lot of the discourse on rape culture in the men's rights movement myself and I rarely give a shit about feminists reframing crime prevention tips as victim blaming aside from shaking my head at their inability to accept that women have any control over their lives at all.

This should be front and center, but most if it has been about crime prevention tip.

Where have you been? My video on exactly that got over 10,000 views. That's significant for a men's rights video and shows a far greater interest in debating this aspect of feminist "rape culture" than the fact they reframe crime prevention tips as victim blaming.

They say rape comes from the idea male sexuality is assertive and machine like, while female is passive and coy and or that rapists can find it easier operating with these beliefs there.

And they're fundamentally wrong. Rape has nothing to do with masculinity or the male role in society.

[–]oneiorosgrip -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

by

feminism's appropriation and misapplication of research into the

you mean the hyperbolic sjw's and trolls shouting victim blamer at people.

Nope, I mean exactly the argument YOU presented, which you laid out in a way that, without relying on on imposing victim status on women who don't consider themselves victims and then calling everything they say against that imposition "self-blame," boils down to:

PTSD in war veterans
???
Rape culture

You are as usual confusing a cheap rhetorical trick used by idiots that can be ignored, with the actual agenda.

Again, no. I'm calling out a cheap rhetorical trick on which the entire claim rests. Without it, all you have is

PTSD in war veterans
???
Rape culture

Prove that the military developed PTSD therapy

strawman, and a lousy dodge, considering that you admitted in the previous argument that PTSD therapy was developed around the treatment of war veterans, not rape victims. If anyone is wasting your time, it's you, with your choice to ignore the rhetorical fallacies on which feminist theory rides. Until you confront the flaws in your logic, you're going to continue beating your head against the wall with MRAs.

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There is also "agency theory" dogma.
The reasoning behind "don't blame the victim" is a trauma therapy model, the military use it, its used for men, and female rape victims.
The person with PTSD presents with irrational feelings of responsibility, self blame and shame for what happened to them, which are brought to normal levels in order for the person to move out of their ptsd and regain agency, hence "dont blame the victim".

Why do you assume it is valid to use (and compel everyone into using) a therapy method in a political debate in the public sphere? Therapy methods are used in private sessions by professionals to assist an individual into being able to function in society, not as a basis for feminists to police the free speech of others.

Now, the mens movement doesn't know this, and has decided that its actually about taking away agency instead of giving it back, and that the mens movement needs to argue in favour of showing these people their "personal responsibility" in what happened to them and that don't blame the victim is a movement against taking personal safety precautions.

I've heard this argument many times. It is nothing unique, and if you rarely see it mentioned here that is because it is a poor argument. And no, MRAs are not kicking down the doors of therapy sessions and shouting "its all your fault" at rape survivors. The argument (in the public sphere here) is that its perfectly reasonable to take precaution against any potential crime or tragedy, and rape is not a special exception. No, this is not attributing blame to the victim nor is it absolving perpetrators of any blame. If you would like to argue that rape is a special category, then please go ahead.

Another thing is the movement is convinced that "rape culture" is the claim that the culture is openly and knowingly cheering on rapists, its not. But despite the absurdity of these beliefs and the fact that they are flatly contradicted when you actually dig around at the source and try to make sense of the hyperbole surrounding these things, we want to believe them and attack people that say otherwise.

You stopped short of actually defining rape culture here or explaining its causal relationship to rape, in contrast to your earlier arguments about PTSD therapy methods. From my perspective, "rape culture" as a meme is broadly ill-defined and feminist users of the term will unwittingly flip between interpretations of its meaning. If you wish to use the term, the onus on you is to define and defend it, so please go ahead...

If someone, say myself - points out that these beliefs are incorrect, you get this "ideological policing". I'm all of a sudden an outsider and a sheep, because I have information that contradicts the firmly held and absurd beliefs and theories that we have built up around these things. So, we are engaging in the same types of behaviour that you find in other dogmatic groups and weave complicated theories together, instead of actually getting the facts.

I'm not entirely sure what you're complaining about here... is it just plainly that MRAs don't automatically absorb your assumptions? That's the nature of competing paradigms. That said, I appreciate it that the mods of this sub only bans spammers, unlike most feminist subs, so you're welcome to try to join the debate here as you will.

edit: minor grammar

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Why do you assume it is valid to use (and compel everyone into using) a therapy method in a political debate in the public sphere? Therapy methods are used in private sessions by professionals to assist an individual into being able to function in society, not as a basis for feminists to police the free speech of others.

My argument is that mra's talk about this stuff all the time, but have little to no idea what its actually about and fill in the gaps with absurd sounding theories.

I'd also argue that objecting to cops or anyone saying “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized” is just as valid as mra's objecting to the police saying men can avoid being victimized by their wives by not being idiots in response to questions about womens DV against men.

I've heard this argument many times. It is nothing unique, and if you rarely see it mentioned here that is because it is a poor argument. And no, MRAs are not kicking down the doors of therapy sessions and shouting "its all your fault" at rape survivors. The argument (in the public sphere here) is that its perfectly reasonable to take precaution against any potential crime or tragedy, and rape is not a special exception. No, this is not attributing blame to the victim nor is it absolving perpetrators of any blame. If you would like to argue that rape is a special category, then please go ahead.

Mra's have been arguing about the need to teach "personal responsibility" to rape victims in the belief there is some threat of women turning into zombie like children with no sense of danger or common sense - while having no idea that people with PTSD already have painful and irrational levels of self blame and personal responsibility that should managed in therapy.

The military use the dont blame the victim model for ptsd too, its not difficult to understand that the mens movement doesn't need to lecture vets about how they need to take personal responsibility, or why that would bother a vet.

You stopped short of actually defining rape culture here or explaining its causal relationship to rape, in contrast to your earlier arguments about PTSD therapy methods. From my perspective, "rape culture" as a meme is broadly ill-defined and feminist users of the term will unwittingly flip between interpretations of its meaning. If you wish to use the term, the onus on you is to define and defend it, so please go ahead...

Rape culture is an umbrella term for how rape is perceived and dealt with, with emphasis on things that might make it more likely to happen or things that make rapists feel more comfortable or justified.

Its not the claim people are openly and consciously supporting rapists, thats just one of the absurdities this movement wants to believe.

I'm not entirely sure what you're complaining about here... is it just plainly that MRAs don't automatically absorb your assumptions? That's the nature of competing paradigms. That said, I appreciate it that the mods of this sub only bans spammers, unlike most feminist subs, so you're welcome to try to join the debate here as you will.

I was complaining about the cult like adherence to absurd theories about movements against agency and the like and how it gets in the way of effective counter arguments.

Its like going to manboobz and trying to explain what the mens movement is actually about.

As well as that, we aren't anything to do with rape prevention advice in the first place, its just something we inserted ourselves into in a very ham fisted manner.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

My argument is that mra's talk about this stuff all the time, but have little to no idea what its actually about and fill in the gaps with absurd sounding theories. I'd also argue that objecting to cops or anyone saying “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized” is just as valid as mra's objecting to the police saying men can avoid being victimized by their wives by not being idiots in response to questions about womens DV against men.

You've failed to address my point that the mere existence of a therapy method does not lend itself to the validity of feminists policing public debate.

Mra's have been arguing about the need to teach "personal responsibility" to rape victims...

Stop right there with this strawman. You're conflating women in general with rape victims, which contributes to the abhorrently sexist generalization that men = rapists and women = rape victims. Any kind of crime prevention measures are not directed at past victims, but rather preventing future victims amongst the general public.

Rape culture is an umbrella term for how rape is perceived and dealt with,

Here you start with a "macro" definition focused on how society as a whole "perceives and deals with" rape. By mentioning "deals with", I presume you are implicating the police and legal system as condoning of rape (let me know if you see this as a misinterpretation). But sure, the police and legal system were not as accommodating to rape victims in the past, but this was reformed decades ago for women. However, unfortunately male rape victims are yet to enjoy the same protections.

...with emphasis on things that might make it more likely to happen or things that make rapists feel more comfortable or justified.

And now you have switched to a "micro" definition of rape culture wherein specific examples of cultural objects are criticized as condoning rape. As I said, this type of flipping of definitions is typical.

That aside, how do you determine what is "rape culture" or not? A song with a title that you assume promotes rape, but only if you view it divorced from its entire lyrical content and the writer's explanation? I am yet to see an authentic example of "rape culture" that doesn't require mental gymnastics to infer that it is implying rape is ok.

Here's a suggestion: how about analysing the specific demographics of rapists and rape victims instead of crudely viewing it in terms of men VS women?

Its not the claim people are openly and consciously supporting rapists, thats just one of the absurdities this movement wants to believe.

And now you're explicitly denying the "macro" definition, which I'll give you is the less plausible one yet is much more effective in "rallying the troops". I'll leave it up to you to sort out these ideas.

I was complaining about the cult like adherence to absurd theories about movements against agency and the like and how it gets in the way of effective counter arguments. Its like going to manboobz and trying to explain what the mens movement is actually about. As well as that, we aren't anything to do with rape prevention advice in the first place, its just something we inserted ourselves into in a very ham fisted manner.

I don't know who manbooz is, or what your point is about agency, or who you mean by "we", but do go on if you have a relevant and reasoned point to make.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

You've failed to address my point that the mere existence of a therapy method does not lend itself to the validity of feminists policing public debate.

We are talking about victim blaming in Toronto and the meaning of don't blame the victim.

We did our own policing when sharon osboure and co said men that don't want their penis cut off, shouldn't as for a divorce. We object to people saying if you don't want paternity related fraud, don't put your dick in crazy.

The feminists actually know how rapes happen, and they are improving the safety advice.

Saying that the people that actually know about it shouldn't get to police the debate while mra;s should have an input is like saying the road traffic authority shouldn't get to give out the traffic advice while the farmers union should have equal place in the debate!

I presume you are implicating the police and legal system as condoning of rape

Rape culture - is about rape in the culture.

Its not the absurd claim that people and the police and the courts are openly and knowingly supporting or condoning rape, that would be an absurd claim to make and an absurd thing to believe is being said, which is why mra's should start knowing about this stuff.

You should go to /r/askfeminists and ask them what it is, or read some of the treads about it.

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[–]withoutamartyr 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

What?

So when Mary Koss decided decades ago that female-on-male rape didn't count when she was doing the studies about rape that are still routinely cited today, it was because she foresaw that someday critics of feminism would reference male victims while criticizing feminism?

It's because she's a poor researcher pushing a radical feminist agenda. I'm not saying those don't exist. But are we just going to pretend that all feminists are representatives of all aspects of feminism? That's not true for any movement.

When the misandrist belief system about disposable, inherently predatory men that treats raped men like a joke was evolving over hundreds and thousands of years, that was because /r/typhonblue 's baleful influence is so powerful that it actually reaches back in time?

Don't be pedantic for the sake of snark, you know my point. His attitude is the reason more progress has not been made in dealing with the issue.

edit: Put more succinctly, I quote him:

The real rape culture is our persistent denial of the scope of sexual abuse against men and boys, persistent denial of it's importance

When showed evidence of this actually happening, he called it 'irrelevant'. He was literally ignoring the problem he's talking about. That makes him a hypocrite, and just as bad as the people he is talking about.

[–]johnmarkley 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's because she's a poor researcher pushing a radical feminist agenda. I'm not saying those don't exist. But are we just going to pretend that all feminists are representatives of all aspects of feminism?

I'm going to "pretend" that the scholar whose work is by far the one most frequently cited by feminists on the subject of rape is probably reasonably representative of feminism. And until this supposed silent of majority of feminists who don't agree with her definitions or the warped statistics they produce can be bothered to actually say so- and say so to other feminists, not just to MRAs calling them out on it- I'm not going to just take it on faith that they exist.

Feminism is indeed diverse in many ways. Feminists fight each other, often ferociously, on all sorts of subjects- trans people, sex work, racial issues. They don't fight each other about this.

Don't be pedantic for the sake of snark, you know my point.

I'm not being "pedantic." I know what your point is; my point is that it's utterly ludicrous. Given the tremendously powerful forces, both past and present, behind the marginalization of male victims, the idea that a small, obscure, powerless political movement that references male victims while criticizes feminism is "the reason male rape is treated the way it is," or anything close to that, is bugfuck insane.

It's also typical abuser "logic," as feminist attempts to evade criticism for their own movement's track record often is. "Why do you make me hit you, honey?"

His attitude

His?

[–]typhonblue[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (50 children) | Copy Link

Feminists lobbying governments have repealed laws that protect men against sexual abuse by women and pushing biased statistics that go on to inform government policy and social services for male victims.

A bunch of dudebros joking about rape on the internet are irrelevant in the scheme of things, when you have a government backed lobby group opposing making it illegal for women to rape men.

I find it astounding you can't seem to recognize the difference in scope here.

Letsay you had evidence of Men's rights activists campaigning to make men raping women legal or keeping it legal or trying to scrub the act out of government statistics and I said "but women are more likely to disbelieve another woman when she says she was raped than a man and here's a forum where a bunch of women are doing just that"...

What would you say if I called it a "disgusting deflection" that you focus on lobbying efforts to make raping women legal. And that you were just saying that because you're "anti-MRA".

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[–]oneiorosgrip 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Citing a rhetorical fallacy only works if you understand the definition of that fallacy. A strawman argument is a reply made to an argument not presented, especially when you follow it up with one of your own.

I have replied to exactly what you have said. Continuing your bullheaded attempts to weasel out of addressing the flaw in your argument only shows that you're more dedicated to your argument than you are to rational thought.

Again, until you can clearly demonstrate how you get from your presentation of information on PTSD in war veterans to "rape culture is valid" without relying on imposing victim status on women who don't consider themselves victims and then calling everything they say against that imposition "self-blame," you have no point, and no leverage to demand that I prove that other things you presented as evidence are true.

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