Private conversation containing "sexually graphic banter" is rape culture, apparently.

[–]blueoak9 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims RAINN is probably the top place feminists go for rape statistics, the definition they use:

Rape, as defined by the NCVS, is forced sexual intercourse. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by offender(s). This category includes incidents where the penetration is from a foreign object such as a bottle. Certain types of rape under this definition cannot cause pregnancy.

So a woman can rape a man... if she sticks a bottle up his anus. Also the definition used by the CDC and FBI. For another source, Mary Koss is one of the most prominent sexual violence researchers in the US (best known as the author of the "1 in 4 college women will be raped" study) and has served as an adviser to the CDC on their sexual violence reports. End of page 206 from that link:

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

In other words, it should be illegal for a woman to force a man to have sex, but we shouldn't talk about it and we shouldn't include it in rape statistics, because they weren't raped they just had "unwanted sexual intercourse"

The CDC does keep figures on "made to penetrate" they just don't consider it rape, but if you look at their figures and defined rape to include men who are forced to have sex with women, 50% of rape victims would be men, which is exactly why virtually nobody involved in feminism wants to broaden the definition of rape to include a woman forcing a man to have sex. Their whole view on rape depends on people believing that 90% of rape victims are women and 99% of rapists are men. Those statistics rely on them limiting rape to cases where the victim is the one being penetrated.

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That argument makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes perfect sense and you know it. Stop lying. You're a feminist shill.

If politicians were publishing fantasies about murdering opponents

Politicians are held to vastly higher standards than college kids. College. KIDS.

The average 24 year old college student has spent approximately zero time in the adult world, has likely never worked a a meaningful job of any sort, and literally nobody should be surprised by their immature banter to other 24 year old college students.

The fact that you cannot see a problem here when there clearly is one actually supports feminist theories about rape culture.

Unfalsifiable claim. Go to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

'Not being able to see the problem is proof that its there! Feminist theory said so!'

'Decreasing belief in God is proof the end times are upon us! The bible said so!'

Do you see what a trap this argument is? 'Arguing against me proves me right' is the oldest trick in the book when it comes to passing off made up dogma as fact.

[–]TRPACC -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

You argument doesn't make sense, you just think its does because you don't know what you are talking about. The existence of culture surrounding murder, doesn't disprove the existence of culture surrounding rape, its a nonsense argument.

Politicians are held to vastly higher standards than college kids. College. KIDS.

Politicians and student politicians are held to the same standards. If you are publishing rape or murder fantasies about you opponent its going to land you in trouble. Do you not understand that?

Do you see what a trap this argument is? 'Arguing against me proves me right' is the oldest trick in the book when it comes to passing off made up dogma as fact.

No, if they predict in their theory that you won't see a problem with it, and then you don't see a problem with it, you are conforming to their theory of how the culture is.

Can you admit there is any problem with these students cobbling together a rape revenge fantasy about their opponent, or do you think its normal behaviour for men, you seem to think its normal behaviour for men.

Do you agree with them that what those guys did is normal?

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Here is a blog post with a complete, and translated transcript of the facebook comments in question. Most notable is the opening line:

Bart Tremblay: Let me tell you something right now: the “tri-fluvienne” [nickname for someone from Trois-Rivières, Québec] president will suck me off in her office chair and after I will fuck her in the ass on Pat [Marquis]‘s desk

Also

Alex Larochelle: Someone punish her with their shaft

And

Michel Fournier-Simard: Dude she has chlamydia. And she told francophone students that she was from Trois-Rivières but she moved to Southern Ontario when she was five years old. It’s a super political strategy.

I'm afraid this is textbook "rape culture". These guys 'jokingly' talking about raping an elected student representative. The motivation appears to be political. They don't like the fact that she's in office, so she 'deserves to be raped'.

Making a light of rape, and implying that sometimes women can deserve to be raped is rape culture.

These guys are complete asshats. Most of the are also elected members of their student body. They put offensive stuff like this in writing, and deserve the fallout they are going to receive. We should not be running to their defence.

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[–]MockingDead 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

in public

I think your idea of in public is vastly incorrect. 4 men in private chat is not public.

sexually humiliated

Where? Precisely? The phrase: "Punish her with my cock" is about as humiliating as "drizzle things on his chest and lick it off." More vulgar, but not particularly humiliating.

I mean, if you want to see humiliating, go to /r/gonewild and see what the girls themselves post.

We could also say perhaps they are into BDSM, and express sexuality as a dom. We shouldn't impugn someone for their sexual desires, or deny them the right to express them. That includes crucifying them politically.

What we have is one of the 4 men is a white knight whiner who decided to make public a private conversation. A private conversation that includes something many men say in private all the time. They say it in private because people like you refuse to let it slide

Your PC bullshit doesn't make it happen less. It just makes you a whiner and makes these conversations private.

You are absolutely as bad as Trad-cons, except you want to control male sexuality.

[+]TRPACC -7 points-6 points-5 points 12 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]MockingDead 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

This is talking about punishment and revenge for winning, taken out through a rape.

How do you figure? Did he say "I am going to rape her!"? I don't see evidence that they did.

Hell, even if he said "if she wins I will punish her with my cock." is pretty tame. He might mean in a perfectly consensual BDSM relationship.

Maybe she'll consent. We don't know.

Or maybe he was blowing off steam, a more colorful example of 'Fuck".

We let comedians and cooks do it all the time, publicly. I don't see why
we can't let politicians do it privately. It's not like he lied. It's not like I haven't said the same thing to some of my guy friends. It's not like I haven't heard all of my male friends say stuff equally vulgar in private or in public. And not a single one has raped.

You keep taking male sexuality, a vulgar example of "I would fuck her", and making it rape.

Male lust includes cock-thrusting. The idea of the cock as a club is at least as old as Rome. These things do not imply anything but male sexuality.

Further, you take what may be an insult to her (a vulgar version of "That bitch") and turn it into a reason to politically crucify someone. So either you are a language contorting fascist thought cop or you are naive to think this sort of language isn't normal in many professions.

Guy said some vulgar words. Boo hoo.

[–]TRPACC -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago* (18 children) | Copy Link

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[–]TRPACC-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]MockingDead2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Its not mindreading, thats the context

I read the same thing and did not get that at all.

The guys are blowing off steam by creating a fantasy in which the object of their anger is raped as punishment. Thats not my narrative.

So what? Is creating a rape fantasy a crime? You seem to think so. Are so aghast at female punishment narratives? Are you calling for the firing of Carrie Underwood for actively demanding that women commit vandalism on men's cars.

And before you say "That's different, it's just a song." You are asking for a politicians head for a few words

In one case you are an overreacting hypocrite man-hater, in another you are thought police, who hates men, and overreacts. In the former, you need to rethink your position, in the the second, perhaps I can put you in a position to rethink.

Any politician or professional would be in serious trouble for that, you are dense if your don't understand that.

Clearly you have spent time neither professional nor politician. They regularly are some of the most vulgar humans on the planet outside the internet.

The problem is they shouldn't get in serious trouble for that. Words only hurt feels if you let them.

You new breed of mra's are just like the manboobz and SJW people, you twist the truth and are willfully obtuse to support your narratives

Ooh Projection AND Code Orange, Code Brown, and code black. BINGO!

Lol, been here longer than you. But that's what I expect from a feminist sock-puppet.

[–]TRPACC0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I read the same thing and did not get that at all.

Then you didn't read the story.

So what? Is creating a rape fantasy a crime?

As you know, I never said it was in itself a crime, you dishonest clown.

You seem to think so. Are so aghast at female punishment narratives? Are you calling for the firing of Carrie Underwood for actively demanding that women commit vandalism on men's cars.

We would be calling for action were that to happen in rl.

Clearly you have spent time neither professional nor politician. They regularly are some of the most vulgar humans on the planet outside the internet.

Then you will be able to find examples of politicians caught cobbling together revenge rape fantasies against their opponents and there being no blowback, for us.

The problem is they shouldn't get in serious trouble for that. Words only hurt feels if you let them.

Its just your opinion that it that sort of immaturity and publishing of revenge rape fantasy should be seen as normal. Most grown up areas won't agree, thats why you just don't see that behaviour in business and politics.

You do that and you are caught, its political suicide.

[–]MockingDead2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Its just your opinion that it that sort of immaturity and publishing of revenge rape fantasy should be seen as normal. Most grown up areas won't agree, thats why you just don't see that behaviour in business and politics.

Immaturity? Code Green again. Publishing? It was leaked by a white knight who wanted scraps from his feminist masters.

And it is normal. 50 shades of gray is pure rape fantasy. Porn is pure rape fantasy. Comedians say things every damn day that in your "normal" world are immature and disgusting, and we pay to let them. Artists paint vulgar images and singers sing about committing violence.

And normal people do to. At every place I have worked, professional and not, people have made jokes, swore, yelled, and discussed what you consider disgusting.

Seems that saying these sorts of things are more goddamn normal than not. maybe you live in a Mormon enclave or a cave. Maybe you are a nun.

Just shows that you've never spent time with professionals or politicians. Or real people. I have but unlike the white knight, I don't kiss and tell.

You do that and you are caught, its political suicide.

And it ought not be. Most grown ups (except baby boomer fucks) do talk like this. When they are angry, or when making a joke, people say things that hurt the "feewings" of PC Twattards.

Calm down. take a Xanax, and realize it doesn't matter that much. He was just blowing off steam, it was vulgar, now go home.

[–]TRPACC-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MockingDead2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

50 shades of grey is private book about consensual bdsm, not rape you idiot.

misuse of the word private, misuse of what BDSm is, and an ad hominem.

This, sock-puppet, is how you make your opinion completely invalid.

These guys published a revenge rape fantasy against a political opponent in real life and were politically hung out to dry.

You clearly don't know what the word publish or private means, since you apply it to a private conversation but not a publicly sold book.

The existence of that book, doesn't mean that politicians and professions are good to go with publishing revenge rape fantasies about their opponents and not getting professional blowback for it.

Yes. It does. We publicly consume all sorts of media that includes rape fantasies and violence, but we impugn someone for having violent fantasies? That's Orwellian bullshit right there.

This is all going completely over your head.

Again, you keep projecting. Maybe, like other p words,like professional, politician, and private, you don't know what that means. it means you are accusing me of what you are doing.

You keep missing the point while saying I am missing your point.

Let me be clear: You are saying that by writing these in a chat with three people he thought he could trust, but couldn't, he should lose his career or any chance of one. That he is the same as a convicted felon (who can't gain entry into many fields because of his record).

You imply that his rape fantasy is disgusting (while quietly ignoring the fact that many women have rape fantasies as well). You seem to think rape fantasies and this sort of phrasing is not normal (it is). You imply that this is a deep rooted fantasy rather than just someone saying something in haste. You seem to think that no politician or professional EVER speaks like this (which shows incredible naivety).

Am I about clear? Because that's what you have been saying.

And I am saying - You are wrong.

The level of cognitive dissonance required to get to your position is staggering. With this amount of hamstering, I have to assume you female.

1) Rape Fantasies are normal 2) Discussing them in private is normal 3) Blowing off steam with vulgarity is normal and psychologically good for your well-being 4) He did not act on his rape fantasies 5) it's probably not a fantasy, just words said in anger. If a person says "GOD I WANT TO KILL HER" after she cut them off, I don't take that as they actually harbor any ill will. 6) I want to go over 5 again, because you seem to think that words spoken mean they are actually going to do it. Words =! Actions. 7) Seriously, I''ve heard professionals - lawyers, accountants, firemen - say shit that would make Stoya vomit in disgust, and never once thought they should be committed or watched. So why is it this phrase has you so hung up. he lost a position he wanted very badly. I'd be mad too. 8) The easier it is to see what people wrote, the more forgiving we ought be of it. His words, or feelings, are not new. But you decide that he needs to be hung for feeling something, saying something, and then moving on (or trying to, kind of hard with people like you nipping at his heals, desperate for relevancy). 9) Rather than take offense, maybe try to see him as a real person. 10) You can be reasonable or you can hold your opinion. Which will it be?

[–]TRPACC-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MockingDead2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And you don't understand that thanks to post-modernism you don't have a leg to stand on anymore. 50 shades is not private. Anything I can find at B&N can't be.

Maybe when traditional values held sway, these sorts of things were political suicide. So 50-60 years before feminism.

politicians, professionals and other adults publishing revenge rape fantasies about each other,

Private vulgarities used to blow off steam.

You seem to think that a man should be hurting some bitch's feelings. I use those words specifically. She's acting like a thin-skinned bitch.

in which one party is actually raped for real

I had to reread it. I thought we were in agreement. No one was raped. Now you are saying someone was raped.

So you are delusional. this isn't an ad hominem. You are claiming that a facebook chat - a private conversation - raped someone. or that it caused rape.

1) No one was raped.
2) it probably wasn't a rape fantasy. if it we call it that, ti was a short lived one. One sentence, or even a few, does not an invested rape fantasy make.
3) 50 shades isn't all consensual prior to the act .
4) no one was raped over a private FB chat.
5) See number 4, and get some help. Again, no ad hominem here, you legitimately seem to think saying "I want to punish her with my cock" is the same thing as actual rape. That's delusional and abnormal levels of cognitive dissonance.
6) This means you don't take actual rape very seriously, since you are willing to police bad words as rape.
7) No one was "actually raped for real" in this article or this facebook chat.
8) You are welcome to point out where this facebook chat "actually raped for real." I'll wait.

Edit: Congrats, you no longer have "Obtuse" by your tag. I changed it to batshit. No ad hominem, your responses make you seem crazy. You seem to be seeing things that legitimately are not so.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MockingDead2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why do you not understand that in the real adult world, people do not publish revenge rape fantasies against their political opponents and get about each other and its considered normal?

They don't? Why a coworker last night told me a joke about just that sort of thing.

And if I am certain I can find tons of things that will fit your definition of revenge rape fantasies.

You keep calling it that. I fail to see how it even is one.

Your bred of mra are our answer to sjw's.

What I said were the fantasy involved her, a real person being raped and punished

Actaually you said

adults publishing revenge rape fantasies about each other, in which one party is actually raped for real.

That is "someone was really raped during this incident"

what you may have meant to say is it "involved a rape fantasy with a real person"

1) Since you seem to want to deny these 4 men the benefit of the doubt, why ought I offer you the same? You are delusional. There's no other solution, just as these men are rapists who should be hung.

Hurts when you are dehumanized, don't it?

2) Porn stars and actresses have rape fantasies about them all the time. male or female they get that attention. They aren't crying, and no one seems to care about that. They are real people, right?
3) You keep saying published rape fantasies. That's some good spin, I'll admit. But what he actually did was use vulgarities, while mad, in a chat with 4 other people. That's hardly publishing, hardly rape fantasy.
4) You should Google Celebrities read Mean tweets. People in positions of celebrity are inundated with this stuff. Actual public, actually humiliating. But I don't see you getting pissed about that.

This all leads to the conclusion that you are an SJW sock puppet, a concern troll, and an orwellian.

[–]TRPACC-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes I know. You still don't understand that adults in the real world don't do that or the distinction between that and books, consensual bdsm, consensual porn and other fantasies where both people consent to be a part of them.

That woman did not consent to be part of that rape revenge fantasy, those boys are sexually immature and were being so in an adults setting, and they were treated like adults.

Your conclusions are irrelevant because you do not understand these nuances.

If I said "yes its normal professional adult male sexuality to publish rape revenge fantasies in which a real person is raped as punishment" you would think I'm right.

What if a feminist said that, would the implications of what you are saying about men suddenly become clear?

Your conclusions are irrelevant because all this is flying right over your head.

[–]MockingDead2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You still don't understand that adults in the real world don't do that

they do. Source: the real fucking world.

or the distinction between that books, consensual bdsm, consensual porn and other fantasies where both people content to be a part of them

I do. But just because she didn't consent to be thought of as a sex object doesn't mean she won't be.

It's you who seem to have trouble with the real world. Real world: people are vulgar, even professionals, when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. real World: people love vulgarity in humor and fiction and emulate it with friends as a form of memetic sharing.

If I said "yes its normal adult male sexuality to publish rape fantasies in which a real person is raped as punishment" you would think I'm right.

Jesus. You are a dense one, eh?

It is normal to have a rape fantasy. it;'s normal to be angry after a loss. it's normal to say vulgar things when angry. These are all normal, human things, that professionals, politicians, and normal people do. People want to fuck people. People want to hurt those who get angry at them, but know they cannot, so they think and say so sometimes.

Bad things are said about real people every day. I think you are so stupid that you should be fucked with an iron hot pole. But that doesn't mean I want to fuck you with an iron hot pole, or that I will. It's just you're incredibly delusional orwellion bullshit has gotten to me.

and instead of actually backing up your claims, you repeat "published rape fantasies" as if that's actually a thing and you make ad hominems and claim this argument is over your head.

It is clear that you are delusional, and desperately need to take offense and see rape where none exists. If it helps you sleep at night, please, please go right ahead thinking it. But don't try to demand others share your delusions.

[–]TRPACC-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

they do. Source: the real fucking world.

Then you will be able to find examples of professionals and politicians publishing childish rape revenge fantasies against opponents, then being caught and them not facing professional blow back.

It is normal to have a rape fantasy. it;'s normal to be angry after a loss. it's normal to say vulgar things when angry. These are all normal, human things, that professionals, politicians, and normal people do. People want to fuck people. People want to hurt those who get angry at them, but know they cannot, so they think and say so sometimes.

And its not normal for professional adults to express that anger through the medium of published childish rape revenge fantasies, and if they are caught doing that, there is blow black.

What age are you that you cannot understand these concepts?

What is your mental and sexual age that you cannot understand the difference between this, and 50 shades of grey?

[–]MockingDead1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And its not normal for professional adults to express that anger through the medium of published childish rape revenge fantasies, and if they are caught doing that, there is blow black.

What age are you that you cannot understand these concepts?

What is your mental and sexual age that you cannot understand the difference between this, and 50 shades of grey?

You realize you don't have a tenable argument, right? You can't have one, because if you did, your argument would be something other than "nuh huh, baby, your dumb."

You keep trying to make distinctions without difference, using incorrect words.

I had a professional tell em he was going to stab-fuck me. I laughed in his face. I had a manager ask if I wanted to be his stunt dick for the work porno, in front of another manager.

These were conversations well away from private, and we got on just fine. I have dozens of such cases.

Professionals, people you look to for services. Think about that next time you need your taxes done or computer serviced.

You are exactly like the chick from Donglegate making a big deal of what someone said about something.

[–]JakeDDrake -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

People object to offensive and bad parodies as well as to Justin Bieber or bad jokes. This is not the issue, the point is the consequences for the people responsible for the offense. And when you deliberately put something out for the world to see, you invite criticism by anybody, a private conversation even in a non-private forum doesn't have the same expectations. Sop what should the consequences for the producers of "defined lines" be?

Show politicians and or professionals publishing rape revenge fantasy against their opponents, if you want an analogy.

The people involved in this case are students, not politicians. Also they published it only to a very limited audience, not everybody, they likely had an expectation of privacy.
I disagre that what the guys described was a rape, it was sex. Currently I can't think of published rape fantasies, so I will give you a slightly different, but in my opinion more egregious example. In an article on the website Jezebel Katie Baker called James Taranto a "cockroach", implying that he ought to be exterminated.
edited added missing word

[–]TRPACC -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Private conversation containing "sexually graphic banter" is rape culture, apparently.
Author	Bear_naked_grylls
Upvotes	20
Comments	70
Date	March 3, 2014 4:00 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1zfvs7/private_conversation_containing_sexually_graphic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/private-conversation-containing-sexually-graphic.1003205 https://theredarchive.com/post/1003205

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