Aren't both men's and women's rights supporters supposed to be fighting for equality? Why is there so much animosity between the two factions? (xpost from r/feminisms because I really want to hear from both sides)

Faryshta · 2011-06-09T18:03:46+00:00

LOL!

Your submittion didn't even passed r/feminisms spam filter.

You see now that they aren't seeking debate or equality?

gevander · 2011-06-09T18:27:11+00:00

The Men's Rights movement was started as a reaction to "militant" feminism. Militant feminism is different from milder feminism now or older versions in that it is not concerned with equality but dominance, especially in the political and legal arenas.

anillop · 2011-06-09T20:30:05+00:00

The speed with which your post was deleted is a great example of how little tolerance for actual debate there is in r/feminisms.

science_diction · 2011-06-09T19:50:03+00:00

As for my opinion: I don't think that MR and feminism are both striving for equality, but not in the "feminists are out to subjugate men" sort of way. I think feminism's main concern is for equality, while MR's concern is fairness. These two ideas sometimes merge, they are often times very opposite.

For example, a common argument is over the "wage gap". The feminist argument is that women receive unequal pay as their male counterparts and that pay rates should be equalized. The MR argument is that the "gap" is caused by life decisions and that both men and women generally receive their pay based on productivity and field of expertise. Furthermore, that it would be unfair to have men and women make the same amount of money if the man was more productive.

You can kinda tell which arguments feminists make which MRs would say is unfair. They usually follow the outline of "Women were historically treated bad by agent X and to equalize this treatment, women should now receive Y benefit". Such an argument is usually unfair because while on the grand scheme of things it might look like historical injustices are being equalized it doesn't take into account that historic group A is now dead and gone and current group B no longer deals with agent X's injustice. For more clarity, it may be true that once upon a time women were paid less because of discrimination. That doesn't mean they get paid less now because of it or that women today should receive a raise.

kragshot · 2011-06-10T03:58:25+00:00

Based upon the historical premise that feminism constantly touts out about how women were disadvantaged in the past, then as an African American, I should be lobbying for the 40 Acres and a Mule that my ancestors didn't get...oh, I forgot.

Bringing any suits to the US government about the 40 Acres and a Mule is now considered a nuisance lawsuit, subject to legal penalties. But feminism is allowed to get everything they are "due" and more.

Whatever....

zerobot · 2011-06-09T18:19:17+00:00

The loudest people are always the most outrageous. There are men and women on both sides who have experienced or witnessed the worst of the opposite gender and they simply apply their hatred of that person or people to everybody from that gender.

Those people are the loudest on Reddit and they make it seem like there is a lot more animosity between the two groups than there actually is.

countbloodula · 2011-06-09T21:53:52+00:00

Many people involved in the founding of the MR movement were divorced dad's who were pissed off that they weren't able to see their children anymore. A large part of the feminist movement subscribes to the idea we live a patriarchy that is a society in which the male is the primary authority figure and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. If you were a father who was prevented from seeing his kids by the court system you would obviously be hostile to that idea and any movement which espoused it.

pcarvious · 2011-06-09T17:39:55+00:00

A lot of the animosity stems from the how's and why's that sort of underly most issues. Make no mistake, both mens and womens rights are political in nature. They're also competing for the same scarce resources. The difference though comes down in a lot of way to patriarchy theory, and the perception of who has power. Men are perceived to have power but don't have as much as shown. There's also that mens rights aren't paid any attention by womens rights groups.

neofool · 2011-06-09T20:03:41+00:00

Equality in this context is a vague term. What one side sees as equality the other side does not and vice versa.

2011-06-09T21:47:47+00:00

First, what does 'feminism' mean? What does 'equality' mean? What does 'supposed to be' mean?

FreddyDeus · 2011-06-10T01:32:35+00:00

I reject the premise of your question on the basis that you assume the principle aim of feminism is equality.

At 41 years old, I've been familiar with the rhetoric and statements of the feminist movement for quite some time, and the word 'equality' has actually been rarely used by devout feminists as a statement of their aims.

Indeed, many representatives of the feminist movement have unambiguously stated that feminism is not about equality.

At best, 'real' feminists describe themselves as promoting women's rights. At worst, the feminist movement treats 'equal rights' as a zero sum game in which men have to lose for women to gain. Some have even gone so far as to say that men should be 'eliminated'.

I use the word 'real' because there are many women who describe themselves as feminist, but who know little or nothing about feminist dogma. Who are totally unfamiliar with the often outrageous and baseless assertions of intellectual/academic feminist thinking. These women should stop referring to themselves as feminist.

During the 1980s, my mother became friends with a group of feminists after she returned to college. I was between the ages of 12 and 16 at the time. The single over-riding realisation I came to after extensive contact with that group (and their friends) was that, in no way whatsoever, did they give a crap about the rights of men. In fact it was obvious that not only did they want 'what men had', but a whole lot more beside.

2nd and 3rd wave feminism has been around for the best part of 50 years now. I have seen little from that movement that genuinely suggests it has any desire for equality at all.

The Men's Rights movement is, frankly, the backlash that's taken far too long to arrive.

kragshot · 2011-06-09T23:55:32+00:00

Probably because MR is a reactionary "movement" that doesn't really analyze social realities or seek ways to change them, and really only seems to exist as a vehicle for disgruntled men to drip their misogyny all over the internet. IME MRA's are men who are so used to the massive privileging men's voices get over women's that they lose their shit when that's challenged because they perceive it as an inequality. Case in point, THIS ENTIRE THREAD. But please, MRA's reading, please continue with your delusions of relevancy and pearlclutching over /r/feminisms' quality control system. Knowing y'all lack basic perspective and activism skills is quite gratifying to me.

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