I'm a feminist, I believe in men's rights.

PierceHarlan · 2011-02-03T11:56:01+00:00

I founded False Rape Society. Unfortunately, at least in my area of expertise, the term "feminist" has been co-opted by milititant, radical gender feminists who fight us at every turn in our effort to give voice to the men and boys falsely accused of rape. Whatever you think that the term "feminist" should mean or once meant, in practice it means something hateful, and it means you are identifying yourself as the enemy.

I have had numerous rape victims express support for our mission because they understand that our mission is allied with theirs -- they, too, loathe and detest rape liars because every rape lie diminishes the integrity of every legitimate rape cry. But no more than two "feminists" have ever spoken in our defense in the entire time we've been doing our Web site. Virtually every feminist who goes on record to discuss the issues we discuss berates, ridicules, and trivializes what we do, typically with dripping sarcasm and seething malice. But our audience keeps growing and growing.

Please understand, I don't slander feminists. I just quote them. Their own hateful words, in comments on our blog and on other sites, speak for themselves.

If you seek gender equity, you need to ditch the "feminist" moniker because -- for reasons not of your doing -- the "f" word signals to the world that you are the enemy of innocent men and boys who've suffered the ordeal of a false rape claim. I wish it weren't so, but it is. And trust me, I know that I'm talking about here.

Pierce Harlan http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/

afterhoursparts · 2011-02-03T11:04:07+00:00

conn1e, Thanks for posting.

While feminism hasn't purposefully undermined men's rights, the results of the movement itself have been devastating to men in general. In short, men have paid a price in exchange for your gender equality.

I do not see feminists as the enemy, and I encourage you to please, not take my summary as an attack.

I feel as though, men have, experienced in the last 20 or 30 years a perfect storm. Social requirements for women have changed. I've found it's made the masculine identity more difficult to feel comfortable with.

We've generally been told what not to do, and had our own gender identity challenged in a way that I don't think has been appropriately been reconciled with feminism. Many aggressive methods deployed by feminism have seemed less constructive toward a substantive conversation between sexes, but at the very least to me, feel designed to tear men apart. These methods I think, have proved most useful in closing certain gaps of inequity, but they've come at a high price towards men, who are often labeled and made to feel responsible for the faults of people who have treated women unfairly. This has been my experience, so anyone reading this who feels I'm painting too broad of a picture, understand, from a very early age, I felt burdened with unfair expectations that made me far more eager to emphasize and shoulder guilt that came with knowing that men treat women unfairly. I've always felt a need to rectify pain I'm not responsible for. Maybe that's a personal problem, maybe there was subtext there, for how men should respond. Be nice, don't stare, don't openly admit that you find a woman attractive for fear of harassing them. And that was 15 years ago, now it's even more catastrophic. Don't go to a playground if children are there and you're alone, you could be a sexual predator. Some airlines were not allowing men who were by themselves to be seated next to children.

I'm only just now coming to terms with how if there is going to be equality between genders, the schism between what's appropriate behavior towards one gender, must have substance for both sides of the conversation. And both sides cannot take up banners of generalizations that ultimately hurt the opposite gender on the whole. You kinda did it yourself:

...She's not a princess bitching about how men don't kiss her feet...

... I'm sick of all these threads complaining about 'stupid feminist' and 'feminazis' and whatever other derogatory crap you want to throw at women who believe in equality for them...

Who are you referring too in the second sentence. You addressed all of us. Now I know that obviously you're addressing individuals in these forums who have expressed an embittered sentiment towards feminism. But you're language is untempered enough that it feels like you came here to pick a fight, while letting us know you're on our side.

I'm curious to know, mainly because I don't pay attention to feminist forums at large, if you go out of your way to silence women who generalize men, or if the forum moderators do? If not, do the moderators or community of Men's rights have any obligation to do the same? I'm not saying it's beneficial for either side of the gender equality movements to speak of one another in such a way, but your approach smacks of the same dynamic that, instead of addressing the inequality women face, takes a knife to every swinging penis in arms reach.

In my opinion, the resentment that you're seeing that lashes out with 'feminazi' or 'stupid feminist', isn't a result of a fair and pragmatic movement that champions the cause of women. It's that the cause of women has devolved into stripping men of their own rights, social dignity, and forcing them into a submissive posture that women feel they've coerced into taking. I cannot believe feminism is truely a tool of equality, but a social vigilante movement that out of it's own self defeating mindset has sought revenge, instead of justice. Where that is true, or untrue is a very different conversation.

What bothers me most, I think is just assumptions on either side.

Two examples:

I was reading a different article on men's rights earlier today and there was a gym at a school and someone proposed a woman's only night. On the surface I think that seems benign enough. All parties can agree that publicly developing one's physical fitness could potentially put someone in a position to feel self conscious about their bodies in a way that might discourage them from participating. However what I find telling about the situation over all, is that it never crossed anyone's mind to propose a men's only night in exchange. And either way both nights should be on a trial basis, to determine how well it worked.

In the comments to this article, someone proposed having a men's only night and to tell the administrators, that the men felt uncomfortable by women ogling then. I felt the tone of that comment to be overly sarcastic, and counterproductive. I think it potentially points at a very real problem though. No one once considered how men felt about having to exercise with women. I've found it difficult not to worry that a woman automatically thinks I'm paying attention to them if I'm staring off into the distance trying to grit past discomfort I'm feeling from a work out.

We just assume, that men are supposed to put up with it. Coupled with the real or imagined social stigma that, someone who wants to work out exclusively with other men may or may not be gay, makes speaking up for an equitable solution to a biological tendency of noticing the opposite gender... difficult. We also can be faulted for assuming that women want a woman's only night because they feel uncomfortable with our presence in the room, which isn't our problem, so why should we be expected to shoulder the responsibility of an insecurity that is squarely in your very equal and capable hands of getting over yourselves? Everything about that situation reads that no one, had a real honest to god conversation about why someone felt this was necessary, and if it was even fair. No. The suggestion was made, and chances are it'll go through, because we've been kinda tasked with asking as few questions as possible, and just accepting whatever it is women decide need to happen. Where's the equality in that? Where's this Utopian genderless society you're fighting for when we are made to not only give up something that belongs to everyone on a particular day of the week, but chances are it crosses very few people's minds to say 'No.' And we just end up taking it. And most men will continue to feel like they're required to accept that we have no say in matters where women and their needs begin and end, especially when it eats into our own.

In 2003, I was a freshman in college, and I noticed that right down the road from my school was St. Mary's College, which actually is academically ranked higher then Notre Dame. I found it unsettling that Notre Dame in the 1970's integrated genders, while St. Mary's did not. I thought it unfair that I'd be denied the chance at a better education then what was available too me, because of a single Y chromosome.

Also I'd always really been intrigued by the portrayal of all male schools in film. The Dead Poet's society for example. I've always felt like men need, NEED, clubs, and institutions that are men only. We need a place to be men together, where women cannot be. I think either gender, when in a position to not be distracted at the potential for sex, excels at the task they've set out to do. So in this case it's getting an education. When I looked into it, there were less then 10 all male schools in the United States, and thousands of all female schools. How is this acceptable? If we were to fund and open an all men's university tomorrow, how long before we were forced into integrating women into it? If we tried to hold the line, how soon before we were mis-characterized as chauvinists? Actually a question of how soon isn't even an issue, because the answer is, it's too late, making a stand like that makes you a chauvinist, and it doesn't matter why you'd exclude women.

In summary, I think the frustration you feel towards some men on this forum, and their anger towards women who mis-characterize them, is ignoring the fact, that we don't have a megaphone the way you do. We suffer consequences of your movement's motives, and objectives that we cannot mobilize a response to in a way that would come close to what feminist's are capable of. Couple this with knowing, that those women who generalize and mis-characterize all men, are not silenced by those among you who claim to be real feminists.

TL;DR: Go complain at r/twoxchromosomes before you come into r/mensrights to tell us how to behave.

FreddyDeus · 2011-02-03T11:44:10+00:00

I'm sorry, but I just had to say something. I'm sick of all these threads complaining about 'stupid feminist' and 'feminazis' and whatever other derogatory crap you want to throw at women who believe in equality for them.

I'm sorry, but I've had 40 years now of listening to feminists, and it has become absolutely apparent that male equality is not a part of the agenda at all.

But don't sink to the same low as these women who think they're feminists, but arn't...

They are feminists. You cannot deny this simply because it isn't convenient to your point of view. It reminds me of what feminists used to say back in the 80's. Here's the conversation:

Feminist: If women ruled the world there'd be no such thing as war.

Man: What about Margaret Thatcher and the Falklands?

Feminist: Margaret Thatcher isn't a woman.

I'm serious! That's what it was like. You, I'm afraid, don't get to choose what a feminist is. You don't get to tell me what a feminist is. And you don't get to decide what feminism means.

I'm pleased if you're all for equality. But as I've said before, maybe you should think of a different way to describe yourself other than feminist. The name itself pretty much gives away its agenda.

levelate · 2011-02-03T12:47:15+00:00

your movement has been taken from you, and you were complicit in this.

feminists have no-one to blame for the cold reception that they get but themselves.

when rad feminists were saying that all men are rapists, only men commit domestic abuse, all men are child abusers, men only want to ogle women....you 'true' feminists were damned by your silence.

kloo2yoo · 2011-02-04T05:38:11+00:00

I'm sorry, but I just had to say something. I'm sick of all these threads complaining about 'stupid feminist' and 'feminazis' and whatever other derogatory crap you want to throw at women who believe in equality for them.

Have a flier.

kloo2yoo · 2011-02-04T05:54:42+00:00

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dtzk7/i_see_a_lot_of_you_have_some_misconceptions_about/c12wcd8

kloo2yoo · 2011-02-04T06:25:55+00:00

you can help moderate truefeminism

2011-02-03T12:07:59+00:00

I object. I believe that feminism has nothing to do with equality, and everything to do with increasing the power of women with no regard to the consequences.

Take a look at any group that is fighting for men's rights and see who is opposing them. Read the False Rape Society and read about feminists who protest against any prosecution for women who make false claims, who fight against confidentiality for accused rapists while defending confidentiality for the accusers, who even propose that the presumption of innocence be changed to presumption of guilt for the crime of rape.

Look at Stop Abusive and Violent Environments, an organization fighting for recognition of male victims of domestic abuse. Who is promoting the idea that only women are the victims of DV and that all the services should continue to be for women only? Feminists are.

Read the blog at Fathers and Families, a group dedicated to achieve equal time and custody for fathers after divorce. Who is fighting their legislative actions at every step? What group slanders all fathers as abusers to limit their parenting rights? That's right - feminists.

Let's look at the increasing gender gap in education, with boys lagging girls. What does the American Association of University Women want to do about it? Ignore it and change the subject.

How about the National Organization for Women, which has just come out and demanded more social spending on women despite a continuing recession and record male unemployment? What do they want for men? Well, they want all federal spending to support fatherhood programs and marriage programs STOPPED.

Consider the World Economic Forum's Global Gender Gap report, which purports to compare the status of women vs. men around the world. You will see that any inequality suffered by men is re-defined as equality for women - that is, all male inequalities are mathematically set to zero and discarded from the analysis. In feminist economics, only disparities suffered by women count.

I could go on all morning, but I've got a job to go to. But the point is clear. I could give countless examples of feminist lies, feminist distortions of facts and statistics, feminist perversions of language and reason. Feminists are the enemy of men's rights. Feminists are the enemy of men.

What about idealists like you, who believe feminism is all about equality? You are the enemy too, perhaps unwittingly. "Feminism is about equality" is the cover story that feminists use to disguise their true objective, which is the pursuit of power for women without regard to consequences for men. Either you are a useful idiot that serves their purpose, or you are mendacious and know better, but maintain a false facade of equality.

TL;DR Feminism fights against men's rights on all fronts. Feminism is the enemy of men. "Feminism is about equality" is a cover story to disguise feminism's unilateral power grab. Feminists who believe feminism is about equality are the useful idiots of those who seek power at the expense of men.

2011-02-03T12:42:14+00:00

You should read the FAQ linked in the sidebar, especially this portion:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bh5pu/faq_13_why_cant_you_understand_that_its_it_just/

Also:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8blq1/its_not_just_the_radicals_roundup/

And, as an aside:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman

celeritatis · 2011-02-03T11:47:25+00:00

I truly wish I could say that I am a feminist. What I can proudly say is that I am an egalitarian. That means that when men are being discriminated against, I am for mens' rights. When women are being discriminated against, I am for womens' rights. My problem with feminism as it seems today is that it all to often seems to be "Women are better and so should get more and women are weaker and so should get more" with a willful disregard to the facts. If one defines femnism to be Egalatarianism only until women are equal or better, I find that leaving gaping holes in ones philosophy. How are you defining feminism?

2011-02-03T13:04:40+00:00

Feminism isn't about equality. Feminism is about support the rights of women and advancing women.

MRA's consider feminism an enemy because it acts like an enemy. Most of the people who attack men’s rights consider themselves feminists.

You defend a misandric movement on a MRA forum because you claim 'real' feminists believe in equality. Are you familiar with the no true Scotsman fallacy? because that's what you just stated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You didn't even bother to read the FAQ which actually covers this exact same topic.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bh5pu/faq_13_why_cant_you_understand_that_its_it_just/

That shows how little you respect men’s rights and how little thought you put into this post.

I am a Egalitarian. As such I believe that all human beings should have equal rights and responsibilities no matter their sex, race or sexual orientation. Egalitarianism is incompatible with feminism because feminism is at its core a sexist movement.

TimeAwayFromHome · 2011-02-03T22:47:06+00:00

You raise a valid point. I don't consider myself a denizen of MensRights, so this may not be representative...

A label means what the largest contingent of its proponents say it means. I agree with the early feminist writers far more than the modern ones. Which arguments are truly feminist?

Feminism changes, as does any politcal movement. If that is your understanding of feminism, encourage or call out other women as needed. You sound like you're very focused on fairness rather than the advancement of women---the more classical feminist attitude.

daravinne · 2011-02-03T23:26:16+00:00

We live in a world where the traditional behavioral structure has been dismantled, but not replaced with anything new. The ideas of "femininity" and "masculinity" have not been replaced with a strong cultural teaching of "humanity". Being A Man/Woman has not been replaced with Being a Good Person. Only a few individuals have caught on to the concept of gender being irrelevant to the quality of a person, but society doesn't find teaching that to be profitable, and maintains that identity lies first and foremost in strict gender constructs, constructs that are very obviously uncomfortable for all except those at the extreme end of the bell curve.

Another thought: an abused child will grow up to hate either themselves, or the image themselves or of their abuser in others. They usually grow up to abuse others as well. This cycle continues on a larger scale societally, those in society who break free from abuse have no way to learn socially not to abuse, other than to repeat the patterns of their abusers. Again, very few are able to step outside of this system, shake off its chains and grow into something new.

thesnakeinthegarden · 2011-02-07T01:51:36+00:00

The very term "feminist" implies lopsidedness. While still valid, and it is, it would be better to be about equal sex rights instead of trying to bring up just one gender.

motdakasha · 2011-02-15T07:03:09+00:00

so i'm newish to reddit, and still learning how to process the volume of comments for posts.

so this is me on my small soapbox. i used to think i was a feminist, since historically it has also been the voice of other minorities, like african american men with regards to voting. however, it has diverged from that path long ago. so i'm simply egalitarian. (equalitarian is not a word, guys)

i don't agree with the fact that the US still has a draft, but since it does, i think it should draft all adults (men, women, and all those in between, since sex and gender are both bimodal, not binary).

i dislike the separation of the sexes in sports. i probably stand alone on this. but i think we should have everyone do whatever event together, and you can just as easily post the time trial results or the performance ratings by sex afterward, like they do with countries in the olympics. whatever disadvantages one sex has over another should just be all the more reason to train harder and be better at whatever it is you do. i think using the excuse of biological differences just impedes and discourages one from trying to be your best. it's very defeatist. (update: here's an example of what i find very disappointing ==> http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/41647511/ns/sports-other_sports/ )

american society is sexist to the core. there's just no balance. false rape claims ruin lives. unreported rapes also ruin lives. in the past courts defaulted children to the fathers because women were not seen is capable humans. in the present, fathers are rarely considered first when it comes to custody rights.

i'd like to do my part in supporting mens' rights, but i would like to say that as someone new to reddit who was just skimming through to decide if i was going to subscribe, you guys sound so permanently irritated i don't see how you are going to gain much support. and doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose? sure, if i don't like it, i can unsubscribe and it's not the subreddit for me, but that seems very counterproductive to getting things done and getting the word out about injustices toward men...

2011-02-03T12:38:50+00:00

I'm sorry, but I just had to say something. I'm sick of all these threads complaining about 'stupid feminist' and 'feminazis' and whatever other derogatory crap you want to throw at women who believe in equality for them.

Concern trolls are not welcome here.

2011-02-03T15:03:50+00:00

women who believe in equality for them

Feminism is not egalitarian.

Haven't you been paying attention?

Don't slander feminists, they're supporting you. We can't be equal if men aren't.

Hahahaha. Please.

A true feminist just wants a fair go

God, not the No True Feminist fallacy again.

Quazz · 2011-02-03T15:52:59+00:00

Hello 5th millionth thread with the exact same content from another 'true feminist' (see true Scotsman)

I'm honestly to tired of seeing all these threads that add nothing new and always end up having the same responses.

Read the other ones if you wish.

2011-02-03T16:49:05+00:00

While many of you guys feel the urge to donwvote on the word feminist, save it. This is a pretty important issue that needs to be seen in mensrights as well as other forums and subreddits.

mean0dean0 · 2011-02-04T01:14:35+00:00

This sounds more like the No True Scotsman argument--by separating "true" feminists from... what? "false" feminists, you try to subdivide the category without changing what the category stands for: female power. Not that that's a bad thing; it's just that power dynamics are still steeped in Foucauldian agonism, the zero-sum game of "if you have power, I don't."

It sems like you're trying to have your cake (power) and eat it too (equality); but you can't both take from men and be equal with men. So which are you doing? If you want equality, then you have to assume the same responsibilities and risks that men assume in normal, competitive, even violent environments.

I mean, can you even be equal to a man in a man's environment? You can't fight as well as a man, you're never going to be as destitute as a man, you'll never be required to step up and take on a man's responsibilities (child support, military service, self-sacrifice), and the entire government is falling all over itself to make your life easier at all stages: health care, child care, child support and alimony collection, WIC, mandatory maternity leave, medicare/aid, social security (which a lot of men don't live to see), disability, CPS services, divorce court... need I go on?

You'll never have to take up the slack of women in your office because it's just plain assumed that you have no social life; you'll never have to shell out $50-100/week just to have a social life; you'll never have to impress your dates with cars, apartments, gadgets, and clothes you can't afford; you'll never have to worry about whether you can get it up, get it hard, and keep it hard for a woman (all women need to have sex all night is lube and a smile); you'll never have to pay thousands of dollars to impress her, woo her, marry her, and then have to pay thousands of dollars more because she up and quits her job to have a baby... were you even aware of this? Didn't she say she was on the pill? Maybe she just says one day, "we're pregnant!" and that's it. The next 20 years of your life decided for you, whether you like it or not.

No, I think it's impossible to understand what it's like to be a man until you've been one. Same way that men can't understand what it's like being a woman. But we men are nice; we don't even try to pretend like we can understand.

VoodooIdol · 2011-02-03T15:06:57+00:00

"No true Scotsman" is a logical fallacy.

2011-02-03T20:32:01+00:00

I used to very sincerely believe every word you just said. Then I started reading up on feminism and took some gender studies classes. I learned that feminists have NEVER fought for men to be equal to women.

If you are sincere then I welcome you but I highly doubt many of your feminist sisters will follow.

epmfrt · 2011-02-03T10:27:41+00:00

i feel dirty. sorry.

epmfrt · 2011-02-03T10:12:33+00:00

tits or gtfo

Title	I'm a feminist, I believe in men's rights.
Author	conn1e
Upvotes	7
Comments	45
Date	February 3, 2011 9:50 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/feewj/im_a_feminist_i_believe_in_mens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-a-feminist-i-believe-in-mens-rights.1043594 https://theredarchive.com/post/1043594

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