So you're a feminist in mensrights...

2010-12-26T22:11:27+00:00

Okay, to be fair, when I was introduced to academic feminism by a really old school professor, she was extremely adamant about how unfair it is that even though women demand equal rights, they're not willing to find a man who feels the freedom to cry as she does attractive, and yelled at us the first day of class that we can't expect equality by repressing men to a sexist role of being "macho" and belittling men who don't mold themselves to the role of "a man". I always thought this was feminism- if men can work, women can work, if women can cry and have breakdowns and pms, men can express themseves emotionally too (If I said cry, or have breakdowns, I somehow feel every guy would jump on me and say "we dont do that we don't do that...")

To add- I think any true feminist would cry out against false rape accusations. People who cry wolf on rape foster an environment where people just assume every girl who says she has been raped is lying. False rape accusations make it so much harder for women who have actually been raped to come forth. I mean, women who lie about it tend to eventually retract their statements, which by then is too late to resuscitate the reputation of the falsely-accused. This causes a well-deserved backlash and makes people skeptic about all rape accusations, so that when a girl has suffered rape and needs to come forth, not only is she thinking about the awful things running through her head as a consequence of rape, but she probably doesn't want to face the skeptics and doesn't want to go through the motions of putting herself on display to argue her case tirelessly. False rape accusations hurt both men and women, and whoever thinks otherwise really hasn't put much thought into it.

BolshevikMuppet · 2010-12-13T18:40:12+00:00

You have an expectation of being coddled and pandered to. When that is removed you think it is people being hateful towards you. You were just spoiled before and are having to adapt. You don't get to bully men here just because you are saying feminist things.

I think that we could find (without too much trouble) examples of rather mean things being said to and of women without it simply being that we don't "coddle" them here.

Yes, we call you "white knights" and we were you once. You are just our past selves.

That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it? You're essentially saying that any man who disagrees with you is doing so only because he's unenlightened, and will eventually see the truth, and become a dyed-in-the-wool MRA. Do we not have room here for thoughtful disagreement, and can we not accept that reasonable people (men and women) can end up any shade of gray that they find logical?

Awww... pats you on the head like a cute little scamp

Because condescension is the way to sound reasonable and persuasive.

Fighting sexism against women and ignoring sexism against men is not fighting for equality,

Yes and no. The sense from feminists seems to be that there are enough institutional safeguards against anti-male sexism (and that men have so much power) that they're still attempting to balance the scales.

Perhaps this would be a chance to win some hearts and minds? Put our best foot forward in explaining that there are cases of sexism against men, and that the fight against sexism requires both sides work together? MRAs fighting to end sexism against women, and vice-versa? Wouldn't that be something to strive for?

"Women need more rights so there is equality" is just playing victim, not seeking equality.

Assuming that women are already equal, that'd be true. But, this seems to be a matter of perspective. Feminists view women as still being maligned and having fewer rights than men. Simply saying "well, you're just playing the victim here" seems condescending at best.

And, not for nothing, but since MRAs are advocating for more rights to men, can't the same argument be turned against us?

Are you really here for discussion or just to scream at us that we are wrong?

I would have us ask ourselves the same question: are we here to discuss these issues, or just to circle-jerk how mistreated men are? There seems to be an awful lot of "if you don't agree with everything MRAs 'should' believe, you're an enemy" talk here.

The patriarchy is not a catch-all for all your gripes about the world. It is not the dark side of the force. It is not satan. It is a convenient excuse for feminists to avoid responsibility.

I can mostly agree with this one. Though, the same thing cuts the other way. Feminism is not an all-powerful evil force which can shift public policy at a whim in order to hurt men.

We believe in equality too.

I guess this comes down to my desire that we practice what we preach. I know what you're going to say:

"Bolshevik, we're fighting for equality, to bring things back into balance after feminism made life suck for men, and tilted the system against us". The problem is:

Both sides think that by fighting only for their own gender, they're fighting for "equality". If we really wanted to fight against sexism, both sides need to admit that there are ways in which they're privileged (yes, there are), and ways in which they're maligned.

Please keep your shaming and insults to yourself.

A good policy overall. Could you direct some of that vitriol against some other posters here? I'm an MRA, and I've gotten plenty of shaming and insults for not being a "good enough" MRA, or not supporting enough MRA "issues".

but don't just react with your pre-programmed conditioned assumptions.

The problem with this mindset is that someone can have thought critically, broken free of conditioning, and thought for him or herself, and still think that feminists are not conspiring specifically to hurt men, and that there's a lot of overreaction to relatively minor things.

The question of this conspiracy should be debated, not something to state as a with-us-or-you're-a-brainwashed-drone proposition.

Ortus · 2011-02-11T20:09:13+00:00

"I'm a man, a feminist, and I.."

Yes, we call you "white knights" and we were you once. You are just our past selves.

"I've been married for over two years and..."

Awww... pats you on the head like a cute little scamp

I thought feminists were the shaming and patronizing ones. Maybe I was lied to.

2011-05-05T18:47:35+00:00

What a patronizing load of bullshit.

2010-12-20T17:34:00+00:00

This really isn't anything more than a list of excuses you've created to justify dismissing those who would point out the flaws in the premises of this subreddit without actually considering their point of view. If someone sees you underestimate sexism against men and overestimate sexism against women and calls it misogyny, it's not because there's something to be questioned about what you say. It's because THEY have an expectation to be coddled, or because THEY are indoctrinated, or because THEY are just lesser evolved versions of yourselves (Seriously, that's just fucking stupid.)

The fact is, there are serious issues concerning custody issues, rape laws, false accusations, and domestic violence that we all should be giving more attention to with respect to fairness to men. Gender equality is not a discussion that can happen disregarding either side of the binary or those beyond it. However, when the tone of the discussion begins from what essentially amounts to "The men are an oppressed class, and if you disagree, you are either a part of the feminist conspiracy or you are suffering from one of several personality flaws I have attributed to you," it's not going to be going anywhere worthwhile.

And frankly, if it seems to you like those in favor of gender equality are more concerned with equality for women as opposed to men, it's likely because men do have many social advantages over women. You cannot talk about social equality without considering social dynamics. Once again, it doesn't mean that achieving equality simply means making things better for women. However the attitude I see in this post, and in this subreddit in general, belittles women's movements and the realities of our society's history that called for them. It does much less to represent men in the question of gender than it does to undermine them.

RollerDoll · 2010-12-20T23:42:39+00:00

One TED lecture does not "proof" make. I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- men and women both have it shitty when it comes to discrimination, just in different ways. I don't blame the ways I'm shafted as a woman on men, though... which is what seems to happen a lot on feminist subreddits and vice versa on this one.

EvilPundit · 2010-12-18T17:35:22+00:00

[permanently deleted]

demiurgency · 2010-12-19T23:29:34+00:00

"The patriarchy is not a catch-all for all your gripes about the world. It is not the dark side of the force. It is not satan. It is a convenient excuse for feminists to avoid responsibility."

This is the best line about feminists I've seen in a while. I want the t-shirt.

kloo2yoo · 2010-12-15T23:05:53+00:00

damn, how did I miss this? this is awesome.

AnnArchist · 2010-12-15T21:10:30+00:00

Seems reasonable to me.

Lawful_Neutral_5000 · 2022-02-12T09:44:13+00:00

I am here only because I saw some posts not understanding why it's important for men to comfort women on a first date, instead of vice versa.

BOTH should be comfortable, but usually a man is not concerned with knowing he can show his emotions. The woman needs to know she will not be raped and killed.

*not implying most men rape and kill, but getting attacked a couple times is enough to make woman not look forward to dates.

Shattershift · 2011-04-26T04:59:04+00:00

Yes. We are saying that. If you can't accept that, then just leave. You've been indoctrinated and are resisting breaking free of that conditioning. Think critically, question us, think for yourself - but don't just react with your pre-programmed conditioned assumptions.

With the caveat that feminists are not some dark global force in counterpart to "The Patriarchy", I agree. The major leaders/viewpoints of feminism hold harmful positions on men to a very significant extent.

Title	So you're a feminist in mensrights...
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	9
Comments	35
Date	December 9, 2010 10:53 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ej780/so_youre_a_feminist_in_mensrights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/so-youre-a-feminist-in-mensrights.1045329 https://theredarchive.com/post/1045329

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