Babies start to learn language in the womb... but if you ask about circumcision, you'll hear babies "don't feel pain" and "don't remember"

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Medically? I couldn't say. When he was about 3-4 I found a book based on some research about prenatal memories, I think it's called The Secret of The Unborn Child. I'm not home right now, I can confirm later.

I'll tell you of one of the experiences he told me about: when I was expecting him I was told via several ultrasounds that I was having a girl. I used to joke that if it was a girl, she would be a football player. I worked in a cosmetics dept. and when I was about 8 months+ pregnant he would kick me so hard if I didn't hold onto the counter I would fall over yo the ground. People standing across the counter from me could see his foot kick out of the right side of my abdomen. So, when he was about 3, we're laying down, I'm truk g to get him to take a nap. He tells me that a long time ago, before he came out, he used to live inside of me. He said that everytime he turned his head a certain way and looked in this one direction and opened his eyes, he would a giant blue spider. Everytime he saw the giant blue spider he would kick as hard as he could but no matter how hard he kicked, the spider was always there. I think he was seeing a network of blood vessels. Whenever he had kicked me so hard it was always in the same exact place.

There were other things, this may seem like nothing but as the one that experienced it, it's pretty freaky and believable.

[–]justpickaname 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]reddeb 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well from what I recall of my reading after he had made this declaration, apparently it is possible for light to come through not only the wall of the abdomen but also through the uterus as well. Apparently at a certain age of prenatal development the infant (fetus, creature, parasite) does begin to open it's eyes for periods of awake time and will direct it's attention to areas of light. I'm going by memory and I haven't re-looked it up but as I recall as the baby grows and the mother's skin is pulled tighter and thinner bright daylight or fluorescent light will shine through illuminating the interior a orange-red. Large veins are said to be more of a dark purple. I am a natural redhead and have paper white skin and worked in a brightly lit fluorescent environment. I have no idea whether it's real or not, don't care if I convince you or not. He'd said plenty of other freaky things when he was young, this is only one example.

Here's a quick other one off the top of my head: My ex-husband had remained friends with an ex. After my first was born she came by for a visit, to see him, when he was about 2-3 weeks old. So I could take a shower, I allowed her to take him for a walk. When I took him for a walk I always just used a baby sling and held him to me, this was new to her so she pushed him in a stroller bassinet. After that my ex-husband's family was convinced that it was inappropriate for her to hang around and we didn't see or hear from her again. Flash forward years and years later to after my ex & I began our divorce. He meets up with her again for lunch with the kids. Right off the bat my first points at her and exclaims, "Hey! I remember you! You came to see me when I was little. I remember I was so little I could only lie on my back and look up at you. I remember your big hair looking over me (she has huge curly hair) and that you took me out for a walk while I was still laying down!" I wasn't there and my ex and other kids were used to this kind of thing but she was not and I am told really freaked out. I saw her a couple of years later at a party and she still couldn't stop talking about it. My ex-husband had been at work when she came to see him as a baby and didn't even remember that she had met any of our kids.

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Granted, I've not been with countless men but I have been with both circumcised and uncircumcised. There have been those that got up after sex and washed and those that did not. Perhaps it similar to woman that are advised to always urinate after intercourse...proper hygiene could make a difference for everyone. I would like to note, how is it that these men are acquiring STDs through a condom?

I have no issues at all with circumcision. Either when it is medically necessary or when an adult makes the informed decision for himself. I refuse to remove any body parts from another person unless there are life and death circumstances involved (as in appendicitis). My sons can always chose to be circumcised. I will hold their hand and care for them post-op. If I made that choice for them, they could never chose to have their foreskin put back on. I do not own their body, I do not own their penis, I do not own their foreskin.

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[–]reddeb 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

But there also are plenty of boys and men that have permanent damage from their circumcisions. Too much being taken off or from having it done too young (should not be performed on a premie or small baby). By contemporary standards I have not been with very many men yet I have personally known several that had circumcision damage. One required corrective surgery every year as a boy as he grew. My first husband had sexual limitations due to too much skin removal. His erections were painfully tight, the skin would crack, bleed, peel along the whole length of the shaft. He could not enjoy oral sex at all. I loved him and we found our ways to accommodate but it was heartbreaking how much pain he went through. When we were together we went to Urologists in several countries hoping for a surgical or medical solution for him, there was none. I have known another man that somehow too much skin was removed from just one side. When he had an erection it caused him to appear misshapen, it pulled awkwardly to the side, he said it was uncomfortable at times...he was unable to perform certain standard positions because of the tightness and unflexibility.

Your buddies are not going to sit around over a beer and tell you, "Hey dude, my dick is permanently disfigured because my parents had me cut when I was a newborn! You're so lucky yours came out ok!" If it did, just consider yourself fortunate. I am not a guy. I am not an atheist. I am Jewish and 3 of my 4 sons go to Catholic School.

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[–]reddeb 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In reference to the gentleman i replied to above, he stated he had a sexual problem, and he stated that he's been circumcised, but that doesn't mean being circumcised caused his sexual problem.

But you really don't know that it hasn't. And just as with the case of my ex-husband, you don't know if he has gone to doctor after doctor looking for resolution only to be told that nothing can be done because it is due to circumcision damage. This is a very personal issue. And yes, even though this is the internet, people may not share everything. I have other circumcision issues and although I may have written private messages to redditiors I have not brought them up on any public thread because they are so incredibly personal.

The reason people get so incredibly passionate about this particular issue is because it is permanent and they feel that there is hope that they can reach out and do something about it. There may not be anything that can be done to correct the damage or harm (if any) done to those already circumcised but they can hope to bring information and prevent harm from potentially being done to future generations.

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[–]reddeb 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

I'm not a troll and that is why I worded as I did, what would be considered a photographic memory. The best way to describe him is that it is very difficult to challenge him intellectually and he has such excellent recall that he remembers everything. This is not something new. He first innocently told me of his utero experiences when he was about 3 years old. He is already in his second year of college, straight A's. He's currently frustrated by chemistry because he finds it boring. Almost a year ago he took what is called the California Exit Exam. He didn't get any answers wrong. He just took the SAT for the first time this morning, I'm very curious to see how he did. He didn't prepare for it at all. My 2nd son & I have celiac. My eldest took out a piece of paper when he was 14 and mapped out a genetics schematic for his pediatrician explaining to her his theory on the familial genetics of celiac. When she said she would have to look it up, he gave her the paper and confidently informed her that was it, he had just proved it. He taught himself to play guitar, all he has to do is look up the music for a song once, then he knows how to play it forever. Recently, I saw him sit down at the piano and start playing Mozart. When I asked him if he was doing that from reading music, he was annoyed that I didn't remember he took a few piano lessons and that was how he remembered. He took lessons when he was 9. For about 2 months.

He has exceptional recall. He is annoyed when people seem to make a big deal out of it and considers most people that don't retarded/idiots.

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If there is a measurable difference between cut and uncut males, it is not necessarily solely due to the event of circumcision. This is a possible correlation / causation fallacy, even the authors of the article admitted that there could be many reasons to explain the correlation. Living with a circumcized penis may affect how a male feels about himself later in life, but that is not the same as saying, "they remember" the event and the pain it caused.

Although, after looking through the sources, this is interesting: http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/chamberlain/ , although memories of an infant are still beyond conscious recall.

Please observe proper reddiquette, downmods are for trolls, not for disagreements or alternative points of view. And to reiterate, I'm not pro-mutilation, I'm simply trying to point out possible fallacies and weak arguments that hurt the credibility of the position. Credibility is important and MensRights has enough problems with that already without reactionary reasoning about a post regarding how babies learn language. It bugs me when people with an agenda hijack something unrelated to fit into their worldview, it's cheap.

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This is because most people are stupid. I spoke to some very loud "OMG WOMEN'S RIGHTS AAAARGH" people, and said - listen, I am ok with abortion being offered, no, not ok, I think it should be offered. It isn't the same as calling it a "right" though, and I don't think it is. I think it is the best thing for a lot of cases, I don't think it is a right. What do you think about full term abortions?

The responses were... completely insane. They were evasive, they were asking "are you asking if we know what they are?" (always in the plural form... sad). I've goaded some into supporting them, only for them to backtrack. It is sad.

I think men need to take point on the circumcision issue, I didn't image people were so retarded, but in all the reddit stories, apparently 11 family members (I've never had 11 family members in the same room) all start talking about the penis of the unborn baby, and how it has to look like the penis of the father.

What the fuck. Circumcision is stupid. People who are circumcised don't even "know" meaning, they don't face the concept of it daily, they just live with it. They are usually defensive about it, or say they don't care (but 100% would make their kid do it).

Parents should say no, but if it comes down to a question of penis aesthetics, the father should really kick some ass on it.

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Well aren't you just special.

edit: It would be polite to mention you edited your comment from just "I disrespectfully disagree with yours," so that I don't look like such a jackass.

I don't believe I ever mentioned anyone being charged with murder based on my opinion. While I hope I'm never involved in an unplanned pregnancy (and take steps to avoid it, you know, like wearing a condom or pulling out) and that if I am she chooses not to get an abortion, I don't think it should be illegal.

You should really look into learning how various methods of birth control work. All these abortions are not good for your fiance's body. I mean, one abortion when you're young or something, whatever. Two, ehhh... you're pushing it. But three? Really? That's pretty foolish and I think you'd be able to figure it out. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me three times? Come on, guy. You'd save a lot of money by switching to a form of birth control that prevents pregnancy rather than terminates it.

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[–]kanuk876[S] 13 points14 points15 points 16 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

First of all, if you read some of the literature, like this summary of over 150 journal articles, research papers, and books, you would learn that people do suffer life-long consequences. We can give 30-year-old men a standard psychological test and, based on the results, we can tell which men are circumcised and which ones are not, without ever looking in their pants. Circumcision changes your personality, permanently, and not for the better.

I could turn this around... if it's "such a little thing", then why not stop? Seriously. Why do we need to violate human rights and subject people to pain, loss, and trauma, for "such a little thing"?

I think circumcision is the poster-child of how we view men and male sexuality. To whit, we support human rights, fight against torture, fight against child abuse, fight against sexual abuse, fight for criminal prosecution..

But in circumcision, you have aggravated sexual assault resulting in body mutilation and amputation, against a non-consenting minor, conducted by professionals in the most brutal way imaginable: the victim is physical restrained using a board designed for the purpose (circumstraint), and then the most sensitive part of the victim's body is detached from the glans decades prematurely, crushed, cut, stretched, and carved off. The victim experiences so much pain, it is not unusual for them to projectile-vomit, black out, or stop breathing. Instead of throwing the perpetrator in jail, we pay them money.

It gets better. There are strict laws in the trafficking of all human tissue... except, you guessed it, neonatal male foreskin. We make everything from insulin to women's beauty products from human male infant foreskin. One foreskin can sell for as much as $1000. Does the victim or their family get this money? No, the doctor does.

How can an infant male's genitals fall into so many "exempted" categories simultaneously?! Let's count them up:

human right to a whole body
human right to be free from torture
human right to self determination
our natural desire to keep children from pain, trauma, harm, severe loss
legal protection of children, esp. regarding genital cutting
legal protection of people against aggravated assault, unnecessary medical procedures, elective cosmetic surgery of minors, etc.
our view of sexuality as something supremely private and an individual's right to keep determine for themselves.
occasional castration or death are considered acceptable risk for "such a small procedure" which we're so damned determined to preserve. Meanwhile the rest of the world looks on in horror.
the circumcised male loses up to 80% of their sexual sensation and suffers 7 years shorter sex life, and in this same culture doctors are learning ways to restore feeling to female genital mutilation victims from other countries.

Do you see a pattern here, or are you fucking thick as a stump?

Then we lie to the victim; foreskin is not a body part, they didn't feel pain, they don't remember, they didn't lose anything, it was done for their own good. It was for cleanliness, or to prevent UTI, or STD, whatever the purpose de jour is. Every time we disprove the reason given, another one is invented.

We have laws against so much as pricking female genitalia with a pin. Drawing a single drop of blood from a neonatal female's genitals is illegal (as it should be). Why are males not protected? Why do we feel it's appropriate to subject male sexuality to torture and amputation?

I suggest you reconsider your substantial biases.

Circumcision is a reflection of nearly every bias against men and male sexuality we have in society today.

[–]Adawgyo -5 points-4 points-3 points 16 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

I suggest you also read these links as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis (NSFW- Infected Genitalia)

http://www.circinfo.net/pdfs/GFM-EN.pdf (NSFW)

I looked at both sides. Your argument, though not without merit, is simply not compelling enough. Also, when asking a generally innocent question on the issue, presenting the counterargument that I am "thick as a fucking stump" exposes your own bias and leaves you invalidated and irrelevant.

Rather than being without opinion either way, I have looked at the information, and the overwhelming medical data is pro-circumcision. I am now determined to circumcise my sons in order to prevent these painful infections.

Also, comparing this to female circumcision of a moot argument as well- female circumcision is for control and dominance. No evidence has argued for that in the male case.

I'll leave it at this and never come back: Whatever has caused you to become so enraged at an inquisitive individual must have been caused by a severely traumatic incident, and I regret that it happened. Also this lashing out probably also occurs in you personal and private life, and I once again feel sorry for this reality.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

You can't tell from a young age if a baby will have Phimosis. Most, if not all children can't pull back their foreskin until they get to a certain age. If someone, for some reason, wants to get circumcised as an adult, then they can do whatever they wish. However, that's their choice, and that choice shouldn't be made for them by their parents at such a young age.

I am now determined to circumcise my sons in order to prevent these painful infections.

I've heard many times that circumcision can prevent infections because it makes the glans easier to clean. However, it's still relatively easy to clean the glans even with a foreskin. Furthermore, the drier tissues on the glans of a circumcised penis are actually easier to get infected than the tissues that are kept warm and moist by a foreskin on uncircumcised penises.

It's a shame I can't find the source of this information, so you'll have to take this with a grain of salt. I'm sure a bit of digging will be enough to find it, though.

Edit:

NSFW- Infected Genitalia

Phimosis isn't an infection of any sort. It's a condition where the foreskin cannot be retracted.

[–]kanuk876[S] 3 points4 points5 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]kanuk876[S] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Then you'll be interested in these videos of circumcisions; this is what you're going to do to your children... pain so severe, we would not tolerate it in any other situation... in the name of saving them from pain. Your position makes no sense to me.

http://www.intact.ca/video.html

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6584757516627632617

Have you ever heard a baby, or any human, make that sound?

Nurses with experience of such things have said the above videos are good circumcisions. Imagine what the bad ones are like...

But, in the end... this is evolution in action. If circumcision was really a good idea, everyone would do it. It's a centuries-old practice. The fact that only 15% of men are circumcised worldwide tells us (a) there is a compelling, probably non-medical reason it's done, and (b) it's not a good idea or, as I said above, if it gave those subjected to it an advantage, everyone would do it.

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