"That case completely changed my view on how the criminal justice system treats date-rape cases. I used to buy into the feminist line about date-rape. I read Real Rape in college. And believed it."

AltTab · 2009-09-23T13:48:27+00:00

I like these comments today. I like that we're using critical thinking on an article that many of us already fundamentally agree with. Reason and logic should be the foundation of the MR movement, and I'm glad to see it here.

tlbudd · 2009-09-23T15:59:17+00:00

Consciousness, memory, and consent are actually quite complicated.

How many people here on reddit have been told by your friends the next day about something you did, about which you have no recollection, after a night of heavy drinking? Do you believe your friends when they say you ordered six drinks in the bar last night even though you can’t yourself recall? If you don’t remember ordering the drinks, and you actually did, were you conscious? If you weren’t conscious, how did you order the drinks?

Food for thought: Drinking alcohol feels good specifically because it impairs judgment.

ignatiusloyola · 2009-09-23T11:42:16+00:00

I am very much against the way the law system mistreats men when it comes to date rape, and I have even started a Men's Rights movement at my University.

However, I think this blog post gets quite a few things wrong.

A person cannot properly consent if they are not of the right mind. Alcohol and drugs affect a person's ability to consent, and many courts will not accept a drunken consent as actual consent. The unfortunate side effect of this is that it becomes the male's responsibility to monitor when a female is properly able to consent, and a male's substance induced misjudgment doesn't count in the same way.

But in the blog, it says

Even if we took the CW at her word, and that she had truly been in-and-out of consciousness, how could she have known she didn't consent?

Someone under the effects of a date rape drug would have experienced something like this. By this point in the blog post, no mention has been made that the female was not. It isn't until much later that this is mentioned.

It seems to me that the post writer doesn't understand concepts of consent, and is writing out of frustration rather than reason.

LordFoom · 2009-09-23T12:11:46+00:00

Makes some good points but then starts frothing at the mouth. Exhibit a, the final sentence: "Women want men – all of us – in chains."

thedarkmrpickles · 2009-09-23T21:12:50+00:00

As a girl who has technically been sexually assaulted (although I don't really see it that way for multiple reasons...), I was with the writer until his last sentence. I agree that it should be just as much as the woman's responsibility to monitor the man when any kind of drug or alcohol is involved. If feminists are pressing for equality, than a drunk woman advancing on a drunk(er) man should also be defined as rape or sexual assault. But it's not, why? Because women are physically less strong than men. But using this is not empowering women at all, it's victimizing us. If feminists want equality, they should teach women to be smart about these situations (don't flirt too much with an aggressive male, don't drink around people you don't trust and if you do, have at least 1 friend with you that you can depend on, etc.). But instead, feminists use this issue as a way to give women an easy way out.

Example: "I didn't want to, but I was afraid of how he would react if I said to stop and it got too awkward" (which is similar to my situation, but no intercourse happened, I was passed out on a couch and woke up to some guy kissing and grinding on me, luckily some people saw and grabbed/dragged me away and pushed him off).

A feminist would tell me I was victimized and this male should be punished. While I agree that what he did was wrong, we did have a history of flirting and while I was passed out in my mind, apparently I was physically responsive before I came too and thought "OH MY GOD" and just froze. Also he was a friend and I know he is not a rapist and would never really harm a girl and hasn't ever before or after that incident to my knowledge.

I was 17 at the time and had not business drinking at all but I was a freshmen at a university and went kind of crazy. What someone should tell me is not that I was a victim per se, but that I need to be smart about my behavior. When I realized what was going on, I should of pushed him off and firmly told him no. That is what girls really need to be taught to feel empowered. To learn how to say No during sexual advances, otherwise the guy thinks your just being coy and doesn't really know you are freaking out inside.

I don't think women want to enslave men. I definitely don't. Men smell nice, they bring you flowers, they hold you when you cry, they help you with housework, they help raise your children. It should be an equal partnership.

Sorry that was so long :/

Title	"That case completely changed my view on how the criminal justice system treats date-rape cases. I used to buy into the feminist line about date-rape. I read Real Rape in college. And believed it."
Author	marktully
Upvotes	20
Comments	20
Date	September 23, 2009 5:19 AM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9n74m/that_case_completely_changed_my_view_on_how_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/that-case-completely-changed-my-view-on-how-the.1052722 https://theredarchive.com/post/1052722

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