Good article about the wrong and even hurtful advice often given to incels (meaning the latter word in a neutral way, not specifically any embittered misogynistic communities)

Gamer_Jack_Gameson · 2021-03-30T23:26:14+00:00

Not down with most of this, although I will agree that men who identify as involuntarily celibate need help more than ridicule (I'm also referring to the declarative term, not the politically loaded one). Coaching is not a good idea. Although well-intentioned, women are not going to be able to give men good dating advice. As someone else pointed out, women are attracted to different things, and most women don't have experience approaching women for a date.

BloomingBrains · 2021-03-30T20:56:15+00:00

It will take women moving past absconding and obvious slogans like ‘incels are not entitled to anything’ and perhaps even considering coaching hapless but well meaning men on how to better succeed.'

I agree with the first part about entitlement, but when it comes to coaching, I am not convinced this is helpful or realistic. Ultimately, each woman can only describe what would make a man attracted to her specifically. And when I've read or listened to women talk about this, the advice is always really superficial (say this, don't say that, do this, etc.) There is nothing wrong with that, it just means the advice is tailored to her personality though. And this may have some efficacy if you're a guy that is fine with PUA and is willing to put himself through the emotional battery of approaching/getting rejected by tons of women. If you do that, some of the women you approached will inevitably have a similar personality to the one that gave the advice, after all.

But ok, even assuming you're fine putting yourself through the emotional battery--you still have to want to PUA. And also be willing to fake your personality. That is, you're not looking for genuine partnership that is based on compatibility and are therefore willing to wear a mask. Lots of guys don't want that. So this "one size fits all" approach to dating isn't a helpful solution for people who want to be loved for who they truly are.

Now, there is a level of generic and obvious advice that can help anyone, but this mostly involves avoiding obvious social gaffs (but then again, who's perfect?). There are probably some men who both do and don't self-identify as incel that have genuine issues with social skills, but this is certainly not the case for many as well, and I think that pathologizing them can do more harm than good. The nasty cliché "take a shower" comes to mind.

Which is why I think this statement

The conversation will need men moving beyond defining their self-worth through sexual success expressed as the denigration of ‘beta incels’.

Is far and away the most valuable one. Unless the double standards about men can be changed/removed, and cultural expectation shifts, (which I doubt) there is likely no way to make women like men that simply don't meet the criteria of what they are attracted to beyond superficial "improvements" which don't address the core issue. There is also the issue of heightism and lookism, which you mentioned, that can't be addressed through behavior changes.

I would probably count as someone who objectively fits the profile of an incel in terms of pure definition (looks, success rate, etc.) although I don't identify with the subculture surrounding it. I'm just simply a guy who has been told "no" over and over again. But being told that I must be doing something wrong and I just need to change my mentality/behavior is doing more psychological damage than anything else.

Not because I actually care what others think, but because I am so hard on myself. Yes, most of the pain and feelings of inadequacy, of missing out, etc. are self inflicted. So what would help me the most (and a lot of other guys like me, I'd imagine) is to be able to release our earthly desire for companionship entirely and find alternate meaning in life. But it is extremely difficult to go against genetic programming and I don't claim to have mastered it yet.

Apologies for the long and meandering response. Your words provoked some troubling thoughts I've been struggling with for a while and I thought it might help to put them out in the open.

JzxGamer · 2021-04-01T01:37:34+00:00

Most women are not interested in this. I think it’s been made abundantly clear by the kind of replies women/feminists give when men talk about their struggles: they don’t care about men or our struggles, they expect us to overcome all our issues and have our shit together in order to serve them.

88mmAce · 2021-04-07T14:13:43+00:00

It's not about advice or lack whereof. If you don't meet the minimum standards of male attractiveness you will be and remain an incel

takeyourfill · 2021-03-30T20:48:10+00:00

you're not going to get any sort of direction towards these policy objectives under capitalism/neo-liberalism. At least the chinese are offering their excess men masculinity courses.

Blauwpetje · 2021-04-02T09:14:01+00:00

Once I warned people not to make too long and complicated posts, because then there will always be reactions starting to discuss one small detail. Apparently I didn't follow my own advice and now most reactions are about this one word 'coaching'. Personally, I read this as: it would be a good idea for women to openly and non-judgmentally talk with men about these issues and be honest, real honest, about what they want (in which case a man must have enough sense to know these are just the preferences of this woman, which makes it only the more important that more women talk with men this way). But I admit that is not what is literally in the article, and actually I didn't think it one of the most important sentences. Still a pity not more aspects of the article are talked about, but again, apparently that's partly my own fault.

Blauwpetje · 2021-04-15T02:01:06+00:00

Step your dick up? Yea hard pass (No pun lol) on any link with that garbage statement. What would help A LOT that doesn't involve getting laid, is society no longer dehumanizing "Incels" or hell even dropping that evil problematic label.

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