A question from a femenist for all of you so I can understand.

iguana-soup · 2021-08-31T10:52:08+00:00

Tell me, how is everything that you all complain about, not the result of the patriachy? Why is it feminism's fault? I do believe in men's...

[–]itneverbeganwithyou 9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mr-X1 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy is a misandrist conspiracy concept.

Quoting an insightful comment fully:

All Feminism, whether it's radical, intersectional, liberal, moderate, or whatever, is anti-egalitarian, unsubstantiated, and anti-male. All forms of Feminism hold the following premises as self-evident:

Society is Male Dominated

Male dominance privileges men over women

While some men can sometimes be harmed by this system, the system itself is set up to privilege men and subjugate women for mens express benefit.

Men are in power and the system operates to benefit and serve mens' needs, drives, and interests at the expense of womens' needs, drives, and interests.

This could be described as "class warfare between men and women, with men winning".

If these are true, then society is this way because men want it to be so. Since society is (supposedly) male dominated and serves to benefit mens' needs drives and interests, the subjugation of women must be in-keeping with mens' inclinations.

Therefore, it is in-keeping with mens inclinations to oppress, subjugate, beat, rape, and violate women, including their own mothers, sisters, daughters, wives, girlfriends, and every other women they claim to "love". If a man does not do these things to the women in his life, he is complicit and tacitly supporting the system that allows other men to do this to the women in his life.

Women, being the subjugated class, cannot be held accountable for this, in the same way one cannot hold slaves accountable for their own slavery, even if they perpetuate the system through their actions and personal beliefs.

Further, even the immense influence a mother has over her child - one that shapes and moulds the child's adult personality, values, and sense of belonging - has been unable to raise men that won't oppress them. Women are singularly incompetent in the face of male monstrosity. And men are foolish too, because they leave their offspring in the care of those who are seen as lessers.

This is where the likes of Sally Miller Gearhart and her anti-male eugenics narrative are at least consistent in their beliefs - nobody can change these monsters, and they're not going to change themselves, so extermination is the only option.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/j018cf/is_pseudofeminism_even_a_thing/g6n373j/?context=3

And the most important premises of that conspiracy theory are evidently bullshit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/p8wyek/13000_upvotes_on_reddits_largest_feminist/h9tyz6i/?context=3

These men in power are not like normal everyday men, so there is no reason to assume their decision will benefit men in general

Also, Science:

Men lack an in-group bias based on gender

Men are more willing to sacrifice men than women

Men and women have a negative reaction to studies that show sex differences favouring men. But positive reaction for the opposite.

Stereotypes have changed over time and now more people think women are superior to men than the other way around.

Men are more likely to be altruistic to women than to men.

People are particularly concerned when men are violent to women.

People are less concerned about male suffering

Male and female adolescents feel more empathy for female peers.

People are more supportive of women in male-dominated professions than vice versa.

People who classify groups as oppressed and privileged cannot make unbiased judgements about privileged groups even when they think they should.

People underestimate men's support for women.

Male victims of sexual coercion against men is not taken as seriously as against women

Male sexual harassment victims are viewed as suffering less than female victims.

People don't like affirmative action but especially for men.

Female chatbots are seen as more human than male ones

Male teachers who have sexual relations with students judged more harshly than female ones.

Both men and women are against double standards that favour men, but support some double standards that favour women.

People think men favour double standards that favour men but they don't.

Links to sources for the bullet points of my second link are contained in the actual comment there.

Given how entrenched Feminism is in Western institutions and what we know about female in-group bias and gynocentrism claiming that we live in a matriarchy makes more sense than claiming that there is such a thing as a patriarchy. That would also fit very well with the evidently existing wide-spread legal, educational, etc etc discrimination that men and boys have to face here in the West (and generally elsewhere too).

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Maybe you should now, that you understand that easy sentence, look at my original comment further above and educate yourself. Because evidently you just ignored virtually all of it.

considering also that it was found that women are inherently altruistic.

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1987-10139-001

Results from a meta-analytic review of sex differences in 172 studies (appended) in helping behavior indicate that in general men helped more than women and women received more help than men.

Yeah no. Women are more likely to claim to be altruistic etc, but when it comes to actually doing things in the real world, yeah no. They are also very good, as a group, at image management and narrativizing. Which is why their selfish nature is not super evident to most men.

Lastly, when somebody thinks of self-sacrificial altruistic actions, the vast majority of things that come to mind are overwhelmingly engaged in mostly by men. Almost exclusively by men.

women make men feel out of control in their sexual urges

The vast majority of women is not that hot, lmao. Seriously, yeah no.

as well as inferior to women in general

For what reason? Being smaller and having lower IQ on average while having less historical achievements as a group?

created the patriachy

There is no such thing. Also quite telling that you did not address that part of my comment further above.

[–]iguana-soup[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I was actually just going to ask questions as I read because you gave me loads of information. If I dont understand something, im going ask to ask a question before I continue reading, which I have done. Please be patient with me, I am not superhuman and I am one person talking to many, many people who have replied. I am replying to this all as fast and efficiently as I can.

First I will address the comment you just sent and then I will keep reading. One thing at a time.

In the same abstract you sent it says this at the end:

Nevertheless, sex differences in helping were inconsistent across studies and were successfully predicted by various attributes of the studies and the helping behaviors

So therefore, results were inconsistent and could not make a conclusion.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism/

In this link, altruism can be defined as:

Behavior is normally described as altruistic when it is motivated by a desire to benefit someone other than oneself for that person's sake.

This is how I would define altruism.

More studies need to be done on this but articles have found that when you increase dopamine in men, they become more generous. Whereas, if you increase it in females, they become more selfish.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6938376/#pone.0226893.ref015

Specifically, female participants became more selfish, whereas male participants became more generous when sharing with close others under amisulpride.

Captialism literally hijacks your dopaminergic system, so in a capitalist world where too much dopamine production is unavoidable for most people, yes, you may find that women are more selfish. A lot of feminists, include myself, would argue that captialism also benefits men more than women and is very much intertwined with the patriachy.

This meta-analysis of studies suggest that overall, women are INHERENTLY altruistic:
https://news.yale.edu/2016/02/25/first-instinct-women-are-more-altruistic-men

[–]Mr-X1 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

So therefore, results were inconsistent and could not make a conclusion.

No. It just means that the studies found differences to different degrees and had different outcomes sometimes, and that those were predictable by the design of the studies and what behaviors they measured (i.e. to what gender role the measured behaviors belonged to etc). They still found that:

Results from a meta-analytic review of sex differences in 172 studies (appended) in helping behavior indicate that in general men helped more than women and women received more help than men.

.

This meta-analysis of studies suggest that overall, women are INHERENTLY altruistic:

You misread intuitively as inherently:

Rand and Victoria Brescoll at the Yale School of Management along with co-authors Jim Everett, Valerio Capraro, and Helene Barcelo, analyzed the role gender plays in responses in the Dictator Game, which tests economic self-interest of individuals by asking them how they would split money with a stranger.

In previous research, Rand had found little difference between men and women in how intuition affects cooperation, where people work together to create mutual benefits. Both men and women were less likely to cooperate with others when they had a chance to deliberate and think carefully about their decision.

However, in experiments that measure altruism — or giving without the possibility of receiving anything from the recipient — only women tended to be more generous when nudged to respond quickly, or intuitively; men were more selfish regardless of whether acting intuitively or deliberating.

Interestingly, say the researchers, this held true even for women who viewed themselves as having traditionally masculine traits such as power, dominance, or independence. When nudged to deliberate, however, the women who viewed themselves as having more masculine traits were, like men, less likely to be altruistic.

Women who viewed themselves as having more traditionally feminine traits — such as compassion and kindness — continued to be altruistic even when given the chance to deliberate on their choice.

Sounds almost like women are more conflict averse or cautious when under pressure and only women who view themselves as having traditionally feminine traits are deliberately "altruistic" in that game. So e.g. not Feminists. I wonder how men who identify as having feminine traits behave and if they controlled for that.

[–]iguana-soup[S] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mr-X1 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

We actually managed to have many achievements in history despite the patriachy

There is no such thing. And men have massively more achievements, even nowadays men achieve much more while the educational systems etc in the West massively favor women.

We weren't even allowed to vote until recently, etc

The same goes for many men, and unlike women, men have to sign away their lives to be allowed to vote. Women just get to vote regardless.

How do you know women have a lower IQ?

By having read up on the topic? Many people literally changed the way they tested intelligence because this inconvenient truth was not welcome politically. Reminds me of all that biased domestic violence research lmao.

You'll find studies say very much the opposite.

Yeah no. Most studies claim either no differences or differences favoring men.

And who says IQ = intellegence? There's a lot of debate on that.

It is the best measure of intelligence we have. People just do not like the implications.

[–]iguana-soup[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]itneverbeganwithyou 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men issues have more to do with gynocentrism than with feminism.

Feminism is infested with ridiculous ideas like toxic masculinity, and do not want to accept that the wage gap is a normal thing since men are willing to do dangerous but well paid jobs. Men also are more prone to entrepreneurship, which has more potential to generate wealth than most regular jobs. Then you have programs and stuff to get women into STEM fields and similar for free, making us wonder if they also will be favoured in test, which would create doubts around their quality as workers

Feminism allies often with cancerous ideologies, marxism and communism, to "fight against male capitalist oppression", and have never worked.

And feminists in general have an hostile attitude towards men or anything male when they are supposed to fight for equality. I respect radical feminists more for this reason.

Overall I see it as a poor reaction against something that is not even defined well.

[–]iguana-soup[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminism is gynocentric for a reason. We kind of need to make up for the decades that we focused solely on men. For example, the fact that for decades, only white men were used as participants for scientific studies up until recently, causing far too many issues for women that are still in place today. Take autism as one example out of many. If you want me to explain what I mean, ask me, I will. It's just lengthy AF so I hope you already know what Im talking about.

What do you define as 'toxic masculinity'?

So, you're saying, that because men have a biological upperhand, the wage gap is justified? So I guess then, by that same logic, as women have a biological upperhand in anything academic, they should be paid more too for the jobs related to academia?

Can you please link me to the studies about men being more prone to entrepreneurship?

Im not sure what you meant by your point about STEM programs for women.

Right. And I disagree with all of that and so do many feminists. A lot of feminist will tell you they believe in equity, not equality. Yes, anti-capitalist but not pro-communist.

The reason women are hostile towards men is the same reason people of colour are hostile towards white people. It's not inherent, it's a understandable reaction to oppression imo.

The patriachy can be defined and theorised even further but for the sake of simplicity, I abbreviated for you. You can definitely go research more though if you wish.

[–]itneverbeganwithyou 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Being hostile will never bring you peaceful results. Never. Japan grew a lot after WWII because they shared their market with the US despite the atomic bombs. And that assuming that the men/white oppression over women/non-white is real

For decades, men had to go to wars. In the first WW1, those that did not want to go were shamed by women with white feathers.

The market gives 0 fucks about unfairness. If there is a demand for dangerous jobs that only men are willing to satisfy, that is it. The academic world is very different from the real world sometimes. Getting A+ means very little if you cant solve real problems of the real world. And not all degrees are valuable. Now most people get their degrees thinking they deserve high-paid jobs for that when only few degrees are worth it, and few talented people can get. A billonaire deserves what he has because he solved a problem for millions. And I say all this as uneducated and poor person.

Do not really have studies showing that men are more prone to entrepreneurship. Seems logical since they tolerate risks more, but something can seem logical and not be true, so I give you that.

What is "toxic"? I do not like that word. It is used a lot for communities and people and for me it does not sound well. Men are more prone to behaviours like physical violence? Ok, but physical violence can be used for solve problems as well. Most behaviours and emotions can be used in a pragmatic way.

I definitely should research. I should read original feminists books. My opinion is strong but maybe not as intelligent as it could be. I aspire to both stron and intelligent opionions.

For lengthy things do not hetistate to send me links. I like to read.

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It really sounds like you are trolling, like really.

You say these things but you don't provide evidence.

Also, I'm not sure what you are trying to say?

Capitalism is not the same as patriarchy.

Patriarchy as we have established is the rule of men for men.

I gave you examples of how society as it currently is, is not for the benefit of all men. Therefore, I disproved your theory.

If you are saying that society, generally benefits men more than women, that is a completely different thing. I think it depends what period in history you're talking about, but if you are talking about the western world, I would say that society no more benefits men than it does women.

Women under 29 now out earn their peers by 8% for example. How is this better for men?

Also, women who do not have children and do the same work as their male counterpart are more likely to be paid MORE. Capitalism is not helping them.

Girls are also doing better in education.

Women have influence power over children and are the head of most households.

Men are seen as disposable by society and are more likely to be sacrificed for women.

Men are still expected to be chivalrous.

Men are stigmatised if they enjoy being around kids.

Men are majority homeless.

Men are majority suicide.

I can find the references for all these things later.

If you want to criticize capitalism, try identifying as a marxist. Feminism does not criticise capitalism. It approves of capitalism unless they are marxist feminists.

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I can however, tell you that women voted hitler into power

Just chiming in to point out that Hitler was not voted into power.

http://factmyth.com/factoids/hitler-was-elected-in-a-democratic-election/

FACT: By July 1933 the Nazi Party was the only legal political party in Germany. If that gives you an idea of how “democratic” 1932’s elections and appointments were.

The NAZI party ran in every election of the 1920’s (all fair elections between WWI and WWII), mostly with Hitler as its leader, although he was in jail for one election after an attempted coup.

Eventually, the NAZI party gained enough seats to start making power grabs. Hitler’s appointment to Chancellor was made by President Paul von Hindenburg under political pressure on 30 January 1933. President von Hindenburg thought he could control the NAZIs this way; he was wrong.

Shortly after the appointment, the NAZIs seized control of the government via a complex sequence of shady legal (and illegal) moves including the 28 February Reichstag Fire Decree and 21 March Enabling Act of 1933.

Later in August 1934, with their new political power behind them, the NAZI’s constructed an illegal legal document that made Hitler President and Chancellor after Hindenburg’s death, Hindenburg died the next day. Hitler immediately combined the office of President and Chancellor, dissolving both positions and making himself Führer und Reichskanzler (“Leader and Reich Chancellor”; AKA President and Chancellor).

The people voted to combine the posts of President and Chancellor via a NAZI controlled ballot measure and not a fair vote. This gave legal weight to the illegal combining of positions. From that moment forward Hitler and the NAZI party were the leaders of a one-party state.[3]

In other words, none of the key moves Hitler made during his rise to power involved a truly fair election, and certainly no fair election was had to declare Hitler either Chancellor or President.

And:

The people immediately elected Hitler by plebiscite (referendum; AKA ballot measure). Hitler and the NAZI party were the only choice on the ballot. The ballot specifically was to approve the merger of the offices of President and Chancellor (it wasn’t a Presidential election, and it sure the heck wasn’t Democratic in the pure sense).

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EDIT 2: None of you have convinced me at all so far, in fact, it is just confirmed to me more and more that you all have no idea what you're talking about and you are determined to misunderstand feminism. If you understand systemic racism and how that works, you should be able to understand the patriachy.

We don´t have to convince you of anything.

Most Feminists blame all men for all the bad things that happens in their lifes. Some Feminists subs (FDS - Fake Dating Strategies for example) have no problem showing they hate men.

If a woman doesn´t agree with them they call them "Pickme" or "LVW". Many times while reading some of their"pearls" I wonder if they ever dating or loved someone. Because the amount of hate, yikes!

it is just confirmed to me more and more that you all have no idea what you're talking about

As I said before and I will say it again...I´m a woman and against Feminism (I will run from it like the plague). So don´t use the card "You are women haters" on me 😎.

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No, the main reason for there being more shelters for women is because homelessness is more dangerous for women due to human trafficking.

In many countries you have hundreds ++ of homeless shelters for women and 0-2 or 3 for men. The reason is because nobody gives a shit about men, and especially not about unsuccessful men. And Feminists literally fight against people who want to open shelters for men. Even assuming that you are right about your claim regarding trafficking, this cannot explain the huge discrepancy here. And indeed, even without homelessness as a factor, men are more likely to be subjected to violence than women.

The truth is nobody cares about men being killed, raped etc. In many countries a woman raping a minor is not even called rape, because they, often with Feminist support, just define it so that a woman cannot be a rapist. Children who have been raped by women have been made to pay child support. Etc. Etc.

You will find that overall, women are more negatively impacted.

Lmao at this sexist meme.

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Patriarchy expected men to hold power? I take it you actually mean the top 1% of men who hold power, actually.... Hate to burst your bubble but both men and women both collectively brutally enforce this expectation on men. and how can the oppressed people of this society create expectations if they are generally oppressed? If we do have privilege, we could just shrug off this expectations as we have absolute power with no drawbacks, that is privilege. A privilege with a drawback isn't a privilege, fyi

If men had in born privilege we wouldn't have any downsides, a privilege with drawbacks, again.. ISNT a privilege. If men had privilege to sacrifice women in favor of their own needs, we could easily enslave all women and have nobody to stop us, not even the police. We could force women to be ones to have expectations go work for us, get money while we stay at home with the kids, we could make them fight the wars for us while we stay safe and away from harm and we could do everything else that is the definition of bad. Now where is this world? can you show me.

Homeless men have better chance of getting a job than homeless women? Oh you've gotta be kidding me! You're tripping me up aren't you.. This "patriarchy" has more sympathy for women, and not for men and you think men can get easier job if they're homeless. Looks like this patriarchy really sucks huh?

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Do you know about the Duluth model and how it causes men to be instantly discriminated by the police in many countries? Even when a woman attacks a man with a weapon the police will most likely jail the man.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/695m34/karen_straughans_response_to_those_arent_real/

Mentions many things Feminists have done, e.g (it is about random Feminists committing the no true scotsman fallacy, so the quotes are worded accordingly):

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

More examples exists for many, many countries.

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Facts are not opinions. The word has been redefined through lies, like the word woman & man are currently being redefined as a feeling rather than a physical reality.

As to the idea that most women would disagree? Are you kidding me. You suffer from solipsism. None of my family members agree with it. And much of the world sees feminism in a negative light. They see it as an imperialist movement. Even in the West most women do not identify as feminists, because they see it for what it is. You are a tyrannical minority. And they are right to distance themselves from you.

Also I really do not want to talk about democracy, feminism and democracy is like have a glass of drinking water and then adding sewage. A movement that wants equality through fascism (force). Laws imposed from the top-down, whether you like it or not. Equal representation by law in every high position. Then you want to talk about democracy? Give me a break. Feminist are antithetical to democracy. They are just power hungry women, no different than the elites. They just have lower pay checks.

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Title	A question from a femenist for all of you so I can understand.
Author	iguana-soup
Upvotes	0
Comments	148
Date	August 31, 2021 10:52 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/AntiFeminists
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/antifeminists/comments/pf3fdc/a_question_from_a_femenist_for_all_of_you_so_i/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/AntiFeminists/a-question-from-a-femenist-for-all-of-you-so-i-can.1066005 https://theredarchive.com/post/1066005

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