Ignorance on men's issues

hottake_toothache · 2022-03-30T20:26:31+00:00

People don't care about men.

Sydnaktik · 2022-03-31T00:51:21+00:00

Aket-ten gives a good description of the state of things.

But I think the way we go there is also general machoism. Take men in Ukraine for example, if they speak out for men's rights and say that both men and women should be allowed to leave the country, they will get shamed by pretty much everyone.

This idea of being strong and stoic and that it's associated with masculinity will make it more difficult for men to advocate for their own rights. And many will even advocate against their own rights as some form of virtue signaling.

But there is a shift in cultural perception of power today. Especially because the victim Olympics phenomenon.

Or someone making them silent?

Absolutely, there is a consistent effort to silence and vilify men's rights advocates. Some of the highlights are:

The SPLC listing the mensrights subreddit as a hate community (similar to white supremacists) at a time when it was much further left leaning than today.
Feminists protesting and men's rights talk held by Warren Farrel and pulling the fire alarm to cancel it.
The widespread vilification of Cassy Jaye's "The Red Pill" documentary which just presents various prominent MRA viewpoints and prominent feminists reactions to these viewpoints. It was especially bad in Australia where television talkshow hosts would vilify it without having even watched it.

rochesterslim · 2022-03-30T22:40:23+00:00

women seen as fairer sex. men as violent, meaner. nobody cares about those seen as cruel. feminism making women perpetual victim.

Aket-ten · 2022-03-30T18:47:08+00:00

I think it falls in line with a shortcoming within society when it comes to defining certain terms with an exclusion based on a power dynamic differential. While power dynamics certainly have a merit in discussion and comparisons, I would argue it becomes much harder when casting to a very large sample space (in this case, limiting to the Western population only).

Some argue that minorities can't be racist towards white people in the west, citing that the difference between discrimination and racism is based on who dominates the power dynamic. When I would argue that the term racism should be used on ANY person or group that discriminates based on race. Meanwhile I come from a mixed household, my mom is white and German, and my dad is brown and Pakistani. I've been on the receiving a end of severe racism by both brown people and white people while in the west. So to me, racism is racism regardless of the power dynamic.

Applying this to men's issues, or any issue for any gender - I believe there's a connection. You have interest groups that want to redefine these terms, and add exclusion metrics such that certain demographics can secure certain terms over others. I responded to a comment on askfeminists that made generalizations that imply that men are the oppressor class and trained to objectify women, going so far as to say that lesbians and women don't objectify each other while adding a modifier that they're not arguing that it doesn't exist. But that alone is damaging and naive.

When looking at say sexual objectification that is occurring for and having a meaningful impact on men (Davidson, Gervais, Cavinez, & Cole, 2013). Davidson et al. noted, the ISOS was developed by women for women, creating limitations toward men and any objectification men may experience.

And that's where lies the issue, there is a clear cut research gap and a lot of definitions are developed for women creating limitations towards men.

Then when data is aggregated, the results often don't represent what is truly the picture. Rape is another example, the definitions for rape differ by jurisdiction. Certain aggregates will not classify a sexual assault where the male is the victim as rape, while we increasingly see more and more blurred lines wrt to inclusion of a rape indicent with say females. That's not to dismissive the number of rape victims within the female population wrt to males, but what gets left out are truths that just don't write well.

In a lot of feminist communities, where i preface that feminism is not a monolith. There are more than just a coiple instances where some supporters claim with totality that men don't face rape issues. Yet single base cases like this state otherwise:

..while it is often assumed that inmate-on-inmate sexual assault comprises men victimizing men, the survey found that women state prisoners were more than three times as likely to experience sexual victimization perpetrated by women inmates (13.7 percent) than were men to be victimized by other male inmates (4.2 percent) (Beck et al., 2013).

See Sexual victimization perpetrated by women: Federal data reveal surprising prevalence https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178916301446?via%3Dihub

When I built a covid tracker for one of my startups, I found a lot of discrepancies with under reporting. For one, if you say we're from Texas, but stayed at a rented place or hotel in California. And you got covid in California, you would not be added to the California covid numbers and you'd be excluded from the numbers in Texas. Effectively being an uncointed instance. Don't quote me on that specific example, it was a while ago and I'm not sure I remember the right states but the underlying premise is a huge problem in under reporting. Another metric was test capacity and latency wrt to case reporting.

Those are other short comings aggregation face that can also be casted on ignorance or undervaluing of men's issues for the sake of this particular post.

To answer directly to your questions

Yes, if the trend is claim men being the privileged gender - the initial sprint usually looks at the less privileged or minority groups. Then based on what reflects better in the latest reporting wave, pro points will rank higher in queries. Side effect of this is an under reporting research gap on the proposed privileged group.
I can't give an absolute opinion on that. In the West, I would assert the privilege gap is relatively small. There are a lot of benefits women have that men don't. There are a lot of benefits men do that women don't. The correlation matrix and resultant trend line would have to be looked at. In less developed countries or more conservative countries and communities men definitely have more privilege.
I absolutely disagree with that. No one should have the right to do violence on anyone. Being racially targeted by both Brown and whites, I first hand learned that these are human shortcomings regardless of race, sex or gender. It's the same reason why I am so against the two wrongs make a right pattern I see in a lot of communities that claim to be feminists. While it's important to say that feminism is not a monolith, few can argue that there is a lot of occurrences of misandrist speech by some subsets. Yet those don't often get moderated or responded to as harshly as if say a similar opinion was posted by a perceived privileged class in that same community. This relates to bias, we tend to overlook the short coming of ones self aligned movement over the short comings of other movements. In reality, for a healthy framework to exist for equality - i find it important to shut down any generalizations. But movements are complex, we're in a trend to create catchy labels to dismissive entire opinions (pick me girl, what aboutist, not all men bs, etc. etc).

Regarding the reason, could be many. We already know that a ton of males don't speak up about being raped or sexually assaulted due to feeling a lack of support or shame. It's easy to spin this as a side effect of patriarchy or misogyny by some. But it's irrational to assert considering there is a duality between misandrist and misogyny. In science there are a ton of variables to factor in, from dependant, to independent, to extraneous. And within each one and outside we have even more sub definitions. Confoubding variables is another. Yet a lot of movements just correlate too one dimensionally I find.

Why are they silent? Lack of support and recognition of victimized subsets of the male populous.

Our findings concerning male victims of IPV seeking and receiving help are consistent with previous qualitative research and accounts (Cook 2009; Hines et al. 2007) of men who encountered barriers to obtaining help for IPV victimization. The men in these studies reported that service providers often failed to take action. Police did not respond to calls for help, and men’s accounts of abuse were not believed by DV agencies or hotlines. Our findings about seeking help from police are consistent with other research which has showed that male victims are especially dissatisfied with this form of assistance. One study found that male victims did not feel that the police took their concerns seriously, and were significantly less satisfied with the police response than female victims of IPV (Buzawa and Austin 1993).

Here's one such take: The Helpseeking Experiences of Men Who Sustain Intimate Partner Violence: An Overlooked Population and Implications for Practice https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3175099/

I think it comes down to humanities biggest shortcoming. Humans like to pick sides and see in black and white. You're either with us or against us. You're either a feminist or an abuser. Masks either work or they don't work there is no in between. Vaccines either work 100% of the time regardless of mutations or they don't work and are useless. People just don't want to look at the in between or the spectrum.

Just my two cents!

Jewel_Eldora · 2022-03-31T10:59:12+00:00

Men lose status talking about men's issues. They also 'do not have the mechanism' for automatic ingroup bias. Women DO have that mechanism and enjoy a universal group identity. This is an asset they do not want to lose.

https://jeweleldora.com/aschiti-model-of-gender-perception/

RepulsiveArugula19 · 2022-04-01T12:42:01+00:00

Emotional neglect and abuse are excellent tools to minimize invalidate and silence people.

Cunari · 2022-03-31T03:45:13+00:00

it's because of sexual competition. If a man fails, it's less competition for mates. Women don't have to compete for mates as intensely as men do.

Title	Ignorance on men's issues
Author	Impressive_Male
Upvotes	60
Comments	16
Date	March 30, 2022 5:16 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/tsbe2w/ignorance_on_mens_issues/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/ignorance-on-mens-issues.1109395 https://theredarchive.com/post/1109395

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