Callout: Jpflathead for continually attacking AVFM. Possible male-basher.

qoppaphi · 2013-12-12T00:31:21+00:00

Criticism from within the movement is not only healthy, it's necessary. We need to police ourselves and call out the bullshit and the crackpots.

ghebert001 · 2013-12-12T05:25:19+00:00

Are his criticisms valid? If so, then what's the problem? If not, then challenge them on it.

petrmafay · 2013-12-12T00:49:58+00:00

while i knew about AVFM before i knew about this subreddit, i completely stopped reading their articles, because i feel that at some point they crossed a line, they are well on their way to become the radfems of the MRM and i don't want anything to do with them.

edit: with that i want to say, that it is perfectly normal for a MRA to attack and even reject AVFM, they don't have a monopole on what the MRM is doing and thinking and disagreeing with them is everyones right.

jpflathead · 2013-12-12T00:21:11+00:00

A Male Basher - Prove that scurrilous charge

/u/wrez your charge is bullshit, but here, I am giving you a chance to prove it:

Detail all the times I have called out AVFM, and then describe the times those call outs were uncalled for.
Then describe in general my other posts about mens rights.
And then describe my other posts at reddit in general.
Also please discuss if this is /r/mensrights or /r/avoiceformen
Discuss what a true reddit mens rightser as defined by you should do when they find problematic content at AVFM a) ignore it, b) discuss it and if so where?

And yes, it is true, I find that I am:

a huge supporter of fathers rights
a onetime feminist
a father whose scales fell from his eyes after the divorce, 10 years ago
a big fan of Cathy Young whose books and articles have helped me tremendously

The Problem at AVFM

and I am often unable to fathom the articles at AVFM as they contain

articles and actions that come across as irrelevant to mens rights and gratuitously anti women that poison the entire website and keep me from being able to share it on facebook
articles posing as anti-semitic crapola that AVFM thinks is obvious satire but I think harms AVFM and yet I supported at first and then was more and more critical of as time went on and they kept doing that
homophobic material I complained about that AVFM had to remove

They have also had articles that supported a man who kept his son from returning to his mother when the mother had primary custody and the man used the same bogus bullshit arguments my ex wife would use: I cannot make the kids get into your car, or I cannot make the kid step out of the car, and whether AVFM understood it or not, this sort of argument is used everyday to strip fathers of their children. Mother and Court: we cannot make this child visit father. But we can make them go to school.

AVFM is a problematic magazine that this year adopted a feminist policy of banning criticism at their site and have banned me and banned at least one other /r/mensrights'er

I accept that Elam truly has best intentions at heart, but his magazine does not do mens rights much good.

Not with register-her.com, not with the vitriol that drips from many of their articles.

What AVFM needs IS criticism from /r/mensrights subscribers.

Because they and us certainly getting it from

SPLC
ABC
Most traditional MSM
Salon, Slate, Jezebel, XOJane, Guardian
Manboobz
SRS and /r/againstmensrights

What AVFM needs to do

What do I think Paul Elam and AVFM should do?

I have been consistent on this, both at AVFM where I was banned, and here. AVFM needs to:

retract their feminist policy of banning polite dissent at AVFM
apologize for the mistakes of that policy

explore how to create editorial standards for their content including

determining what their message is
instituting editors to ensure articles are on topic, relevant, focused
creating articles that serve their readers needs in terms of subject, in terms of readability, in terms of length
how to create sharp recognizable parody that cannot be misconstrued by the MSM and other readers
having editors work with writers to remove problematic crap before it is published
how to create content that makes men, mens rights, and AVFM look good in the public eye
how to create content and a website that induces sharing, not a fear of sharing
examining if their current content is meeting the goals they have

The Problem of wrez, callout culture, and this thread of his

But perhaps wrez, instead of calling ME out, you should defend your policy of calling out in general. Call out culture is distinctively a new tactic of Social Justice Warrior. Yes at SRS and many reddit sites, calling out a person as enemy should be good to see them condemned, piled on, and then banned.

Over here at /r/mensrights, I thought we could argue with words, make our arguments, support them. Discuss issues openly.

But apparently, when you find someone disagreeable, instead of arguing with them in the thread, you feel justified to make an entirely NEW thread to call out the troops and heap flames and insults on your target.

wrez, until you can prove your bullshit charge I am a male basher, you can bite me and just fuck right off.

P.S. If you want to capitalize it, it would be JPFlathead, not JpFlathead.

Captaincastle · 2013-12-12T01:34:31+00:00

Yeah he seems super unreasonable

/s

SRSLovesGawker · 2013-12-12T02:10:51+00:00

Maybe, but that AVFM post by Elam today with the marital rape stuff was certainly cringe-worthy and worthy of being pointed out as low quality. AVFM has stuff I frequently agree with and some that I don't, but it does have a bad track record of saying things in a way that can easily be interpreted in the worst way possible.

I understand that Elam wants to approach things from a "firebrand" angle, and every movement does need its agitators to help shift the Overton window, but I often find myself wishing ^{he agitated while keeping his} eye more on how his words can be used against him (and by extension us) rather than how he uses his words against others.

rightsbot · 2013-12-12T00:04:17+00:00

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JesusSaidSo · 2013-12-12T04:33:56+00:00

This is bullshit.

Don't get into calling people out unless its warranted. Anyone with a shred of logic can see that /u/Jpflathead is a men's rights friendly person who happens to take strong issue with AVFM. While I think their concerns are way exaggerated, I don't think they're trolling.

The account may be young, but its not like the vast majority of other troll accounts that come through /r/MensRights constantly.

To both /u/wrez and /u/Jpflathead Don't alienate allies.

sibqm_lmvm · 2013-12-12T00:21:55+00:00

The first place criticism should come from is in our own community. If we can't police ourselves, we are screwed. AVfM has a lot of problems right now. They need to make changes.

SRSLovesGawker · 2013-12-12T02:33:16+00:00

This does indeed raise a question. Is this sub supposed to be a sub of avfm? Are we not supposed to ever say anything critical of avfm?

Pornography_saves_li · 2013-12-12T06:10:51+00:00

I vote /u/wrez be banned for pulling this bullshit maneuver.

guywithaccount · 2013-12-14T00:10:19+00:00

Downvoting.

Title	Callout: Jpflathead for continually attacking AVFM. Possible male-basher.
Author	wrez
Upvotes	0
Comments	46
Date	December 12, 2013 12:03 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1soc2s/callout_jpflathead_for_continually_attacking_avfm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/callout-jpflathead-for-continually-attacking-avfm.1156388 https://theredarchive.com/post/1156388

Comments

A Male Basher - Prove that scurrilous charge

The Problem at AVFM

What AVFM needs to do

The Problem of wrez, callout culture, and this thread of his