Feminist Logic | MensRights

[–]nigglereddit 34 points35 points36 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-end-of-competition.html

The phenomenon isn't really peculiar at all. Humanitarian work is a job that exists to eliminate itself. The only way to keep a job dedicated to solving the problem is to perpetuate the problem. Or to redefine the problem on a larger scale. All that is familiar enough from any number of non-profits and government agencies that exist to remind people to care about a problem that they don't care about.

Redefining the problem on a larger scale means more money, more power and more control. Any problem, whether it's homelessness, illiteracy or crime is a social problem and can only be solved by taking a holistic approach to everything. A city, a country and a world become a giant puzzle that can only be solved by manipulating all the pieces into place in the right order. The only way to solve the problems that never get solved is through total control over every human being on earth.

... The trouble with all this isn't humanitarianism. It's not wrong to care about others. It is wrong to pass that caring off to an impersonal bureaucracy or to set up a system of mandatory caring or to disrupt the lives of others on a massive scale out of spiteful self-righteousness because they don't care enough.

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[–]nigglereddit 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, as I'm sure you're aware, most MRAs don't really agree that white men are a "dominant group" in western societies.

Most of us feel that there is little or no evidence of the "privilege" we are often said to have and that in actual fact the available evidence shows conclusively that men are treated as unequal and unworthy the vast majority of the time in crucial areas like healthcare, the protection of the law, domestic violence, suicide and mental health, family life and family law.

Unfortunately, some very prominent feminist groups have strongly opposed our attempts to be heard on these issues and those who don't actively oppose us certainly don't help us significantly. So I hope you can see that at the very least we have to set ourselves apart from feminists or actively oppose them as needed.

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[–]nigglereddit 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you also disagree that whites are the dominant group, and think they are treated as unequal and unworthy?

In most respects, whites are not a "dominant" group, no. They are a majority group in many areas of society but that is not the same as dominant.

In the vast majority of ways, people of all colours are remarkably equal in our society. That doesn't mean that black people for example don't have areas in which many are severely disadvantaged. But at the same time the president of the United States is black and black people are disproportionately represented in many areas of sports and music among other things. Does that make it fair to say, "black people are dominant over white people"?

To call an entire group "dominant" is simplistic, as I've tried to show. That's why you'll rarely see Men's Rights groups talking about groups in terms of "dominance" or "oppression". We prefer by and large to look at the actual issues no matter the colour or creed of those affected by them.

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[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm sick of the oppression olympics. What's so good about being oppressed that people have to argue about who has it worse?

Edit: Expanding.

Seriously, it's fucking ridiculous. If both sides want gender equality, why is there any of this stupid game of who has it worse? I'm aiming this both at feminists and MRA's.

If you really care about gender equality, it doesn't matter who has it worse. It only matters what issues exist, and whether or not they can be solved.

Besides, the stupid "who has it worse?" battle will never be won. We can imagine feelings that aren't our own, but we can't feel them, and because we can't feel them, we'll never really win. And if we stick to our own gender as some kind of tribe, we'll never even admit it if the other side has it worse. It's totally childish. Knowing who has it worse does not solve anything. It's a pointless battle being fought when people are trying to change society's attitudes.

Again, there's bad shit about society's perception of both genders, you'll never really know who has it worse, and knowing who has it worse is useless anyway. What's important is creating a new set of standards that work for both genders.

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[–]matthewjumps 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

you really havent been paying attention have you.

feminist got womens rights in the west years ago. now they fight to promote womens privileges, entitlement and comfort, without the associated responsibilities and risks, and at the expense of men.

one of the biggest cultural and political forces standing in the way of fair treatment of men in the family court, in domestic violence cases, in sexual assault cases, in education and the workplace, and many other areas the mrm cares about... is feminists. not only do feminists actively campaign to enact laws and policies that harm mens rights, they also seem to think they have a monopoly on gender issues, and commonly tell mras to 'shut the fuck up' when they dare to raise issues that effect them personally, because 'feminism is working on it', all while making it worse.

and youre surprised that mras see a need to overcome feminisms stranglehold on the discourse?

[+][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

feminist got womens rights in the west years ago. now they fight to promote womens privileges, entitlement and comfort, without the associated responsibilities and risks, and at the expense of men

Yeah that's just a sweeping claim. I'm a feminist and I don't think women should have any special privileges. We can both make generalizations. I could say the same about MRAs, that they want their male privilege back and resent equality as emasculating.

How is feminism standing in the way of the issues you list? If anything feminists are doing more than MRAs. Before feminism, women were considered the primary caregivers and the child almost always went to the woman. What have MRAs done in the way of activism?

If feminists tell MRA's to "shut up", that's rude, but MRAs are definitely not innocent of directing verbal abuse at feminists, or "feminazis" to use your favorite Rush Limbaugh lingo.

[–]matthewjumps 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

dont make assumptions about my politics, it makes you look even stupider than you already do.

how about you look at the feminist protests at mens rights lectures in the university of toronto. or the feminists who are pushing to throw the presumption of innocence and standard of proof for rape cases out the window. or the feminists who claim that if a woman is drunk and has sex she got raped, but if the man was drunk too well he is still a rapist. or the feminists who continue to peddle the myths of patriarchy, the wage gap and rape culture, and paint men to be largely responsible for these (fabricated) social ills. or the feminists who get angry whenever male genital mutilation is mentioned in discussions about female genital mutilation in third world countries, despite the fact male genital mutilation still legally occurs regularly in the west? or the feminist organisation known as FEMEN that features a picture of a woman holding a mans severed testicles on their website? or feminists campaigning to enforce gender quotas on the workplace, making women get hired preferentially just to fill out percentages? or feminists who downplay or even hide and distort the fact that domestic violence occurs both directions at similar rates, instead trying to pretend it mainly affects women. or the feminists who make a big fuss if 1 in 7 homeless people are women, or 1 in 20 workplace deaths are women or whatever, and celebrate when women outgraduate and outperform men at school.

honestly though, i can list famous or influential feminists and feminist organisations till the cows come home, authors, professors, media personalities, politicians, judges, all of whom have demonstrated a clear bias against men and mens rights, and you will dismiss this with the typical no true scotsman fallacy, 'not all feminists are like that'.

sorry to break it to you, but the feminists who are actually doing stuff, not just the people who verbally label themselves feminist then get on with normal life and forget about it, the active feminists, more often than not, are showing feminisms true colours. you dont judge a movement on what it says its about, you judge it on what its leaders and active members do.

and dont give me this 'feminists are doing more than mras' nonsense. you compare the budgets of the 2 movements, the amount of government funding, donations and charities supporting them, and then get back to me. while youre there, maybe look at the difference in funding that goes to medical research of male vs female diseases, or perhaps the funding that goes into domestic violence shelters for men who make up half the victims of domestic violence, vs the funding that goes to shelters for women. then once youve got an idea of the incredible disparity in funding between the 2 movements, explain to me why feminism, which is supposedly all about equality, has never made a push to distribute its funds in a more balanced fashion so that issues that affect both sexes are addressed equally.

[+][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

"stupider"?

I don't agree with feminists who do shit like in the examples you gave. So attack those particular feminists, not all feminists. Or if we're generalizing, do I get to say that all MRAs are rape apologists, since some are? Do I get to judge you all by Paul Elam and Tom Martin? AVFM is a pretty mainstream MRA website but it has some disgustingly misogynistic content.

or the feminists who get angry whenever male genital mutilation is mentioned in discussions about female genital mutilation in third world countries, despite the fact male genital mutilation still legally occurs regularly in the west?

Why would you go onto a news article about a girl being mutilated in Yemen for example, and then change the subject to male circumcision? Why would you want to derail a discussion like that? Why not begin your own discussion about male circumcision in the west, instead of interrupting another discussion to talk about what you want to talk about? It's like going on to an article where a woman is raped or something, and saying "men get raped too". Well duh. That doesn't mean you have to derail every discussion to focus on men like it's a fucking competition.

honestly though, i can list famous or influential feminists and feminist organisations till the cows come home, authors, professors, media personalities, politicians, judges, all of whom have demonstrated a clear bias against men and mens rights, and you will dismiss this with the typical no true scotsman fallacy, 'not all feminists are like that'.

All right then, but I'm afraid that means you aren't aloud to pull the "no true scotsman" fallacy either, and you have to take responsibility for this.

As far as funding/charities and stuff are concerned, that starts with activism. What have you done in terms of raising awareness about men's issues? Why don't you volunteer in men's shelters and work with male sexual assault victims? Why don't you protest against circumcision? Why don't you pay any attention to prison rape?

[–]matthewjumps 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

i didnt say all feminists are the problem, there are many, like i said, who say they are feminists but dont do much of anything, good or bad. im saying the movement itself, and its core ideologies like the myths of patriarchy, rape culture and the wage gap, and its penchant for largely blaming men for these manufactured issues, is the problem. and these underlying, toxic dogmas often express themselves in such a way that when someone is actually immersed in feminist activism, and is given a bit of power, their true anti-male colours show.

if men are trying to campaign for fair treatment in rape cases, or family court, toxic feminist myths like rape culture and patriarchy will poison the discourse and stand in the way of equality.

and if you have a problem with someone mentioning babies in your own country that are being mutilated systematically, in a discussion about babies in another country, ask yourself this. if there was a news article about a girl being mutilated in yemen, and someone came on the comments and said 'hey guys btw, in our own country girls are being mutilated all the time', would that be derailing? or would it not be relevant, valid information to bring to the conversation.

you have just demonstrated why feminists are the enemies of mens rights. you are the one drawing imaginary gender lines between issues that affect boys and girls. genital mutilation of babies is one issue. your bigoted ideology conditions you to be so lopsided in your thinking that you have to make it a zero sum game.

as for misogyny of paul elam, while i wont deny he certainly has said very incendiary things, my point remains that feminism, unlike mens rights, has 3 anti-male doctrines built right in to the ideology. its sort of like the difference between a suicide bomber and a school shooter who happens to be an atheist. sure, you cant generalize and say all atheists or muslims are murderous psychos, but... in the case of the suicide bomber, the ideology and dogma of islam was directly linked to motivating them to do that, whereas the school shooter who happened to be atheist has no such ideological drive. you can point to members in a movement who do or say shitty things, but unless you can connect their actions directly to the underlying ideology of the movement, then you have a pathetically weak case.

the anti-male actions of feminists can easily be linked to the fundamental feminist dogmas of patriarchy, rape culture and the wage gap. do you deny that?

[–]matthewjumps 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ted8367 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Ted8367 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm not the one focusing on feminism.

But you are. You've talked about nothing else in this thread. Admittedly, the thread is titled "Feminist Logic" and so, here, it's appropriate; but there are a lot of other threads. For example, right now on the front page, there is a discussion of an incident in Hamilton, NZ, where a woman deliberately drove her car into her partner causing serious injuries, hasn't yet been charged with any crime, and the process for absolving her is underway. That's nothing to do with feminism; but very much to do with the rights of her partner, a man.

Can you be more specific about how you think feminism has taken only "one aspect of this?

Are you serious? Just off the top of my head: the college education disparity, where overall women are in the majority, but feminist attention is directed only to those numerically small areas where they aren't. The economic and social effects of that imbalance are totally ignored in the rush.

Why do you focus so much on feminists?

They are the major - I'd say overwhelming - voice in gender issues, so any discussion in the area is going to be impacted by them.

[–][deleted]-5 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Whether or not I focus on feminism, doesn't change the fact that's it's the main focus of this sub and every men's rights forum.

What do you mean "feminist attention is directed only to those numerically small areas where they aren't." Do you mean fields like engineering or Maths or physics where there are typically a lot less women? So they shouldn't target that because there are more women in languages for example? And why aren't MRAs active in getting boys into education where they are underrepresented?

Yeah of course it .Do you not think that fighting misogyny and the objectification of women in society is a good thing? How is it in conflict with MRAs? Why do MRAs have such a HUGE problem with this?

For example, why the visceral hatred of Anita Saarkeesian? If she thinks women are badly represented in video games, even if you disagree personally, that doesn't hurt MRAs, so why is it such an issue? It's because they simply hate feminists.

[–]Ted83674 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]-5 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men's rights are the main focus of this sub.

The front page begs to differ. Four of the top posts have feminism/feminists in the title, four are stories about women doing bad things, and feminists are discussed in the comments of almost every single post.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument about why feminists should not try to help more women into those fields, what's wrong with that? Don't we want a balance of genders in different subjects. I'm all for getting more men into female dominated areas and I'll support any MRAs who try to do that.

You seriously don't think there is misogyny/objectification of women in our culture? See, how can you accuse feminists of not taking men's issues seriously, when you're doing the same with women's issues?

I bring up AS because she's mentioned a lot on here. But if you don't know her I won't press the matter.

[–]Ted83674 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Four of the top posts have feminism/feminists in the title, four are stories about women doing bad things, and feminists are discussed in the comments of almost every single post.

Right. The main focus, however, is Men's Rights. The voice of the feminists is so loud it intrudes into most discussions.

It's the result of claiming to be for equality while concentrating only on one side of a binary divide. Inevitably, it affects the other side as well. Just going by the geometry of it.

Don't we want a balance of genders in different subjects.

I don't, particularly. What is the point? Men and women are different physically - I trust you agree with this - so I would expect they differ behaviorally too. It seems to me that everything goes better if you spend your time doing what interests you. The fact that this subject area has to be forced show that those pushing it have it wrong.

To illustrate the inanity of this "balance of genders" idea consider campaigning for men to have as many births as women. Maybe some sort of medical procedure could be developed...

You seriously don't think there is misogyny/objectification of women in our culture?

Misogyny and objectification are politically charged terms that are subject to continuous redefinition and are so hyped up as to have become virtually meaningless.

how can you accuse feminists of not taking men's issues seriously

I don't so accuse them. As I see it, they are simply ignorant of men's issues. Too busy with getting more advantages to pay attention.

[–][deleted]-5 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's the result of claiming to be for equality while concentrating only on one side of a binary divide.

What are MRA's, who claim to be egalitarian, doing for women's rights?

Personally, I don't see a pressing need to balance the genders in all subjects either, so long as people are given the equal opportunity to pursue what they are interested and capable in. But you seemed to think that men were underrepresented, and this was your objection to feminists focusing on women in certain subjects?

Misogyny and objectification are politically charged terms that are subject to continuous redefinition and are so hyped up as to have become virtually meaningless.

Do you think misandry is equally meaningless?

As I see it, they are simply ignorant of men's issues. Too busy with getting more advantages to pay attention.

I could just turn this back on MRAs when it comes to women's issues. But I don't expect MRAs to focus on women, why should they? Otherwise we'd all just call ourselves egalitarian and not focus on any subset of the population. Sometimes you need to pick a focus. Feminism picks women, the MRM (ostensibly) picks men.

[–]Ted83673 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]-4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MassivePenis0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Feminist Logic
Author	johnmarkley
Upvotes	174
Comments	57
Date	November 17, 2013 8:11 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1qtbqk/feminist_logic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-logic.1158616 https://theredarchive.com/post/1158616

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