When you check out a girl/woman, what do you actually do?

[deleted] · 2013-09-11T02:25:50+00:00

I think we have all seen the complaints from women (feminism not required) about feeling objectified when men check them out, how they consider that men leer...

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[–]oneiorosgrip 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It happens. Both sexes do it. When I worked at the gas station, there was a female customer who used to come in and chatter at the employees about random shit. I didn't work behind the counter, so I got to find out that she was a touchy-feely gal. She used to pat my boobs to get my attention. It was pretty obviously not accidental, because she did it when my arm or shoulder would have been an easier reach. If I had my back turned, she'd walk around in front of me and pat my boobs. If I was carrying something, she'd reach around it and pat my boobs.

Other people saw her do it and dismissed the behavior.

Had she been a man, the boss would have kicked him out of the store. As it was, nothing was done until I complained, and then I was ridiculed for being uncomfortable with a woman's touch.

[–]Frankly_No -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I've lived and worked in multiple communities. From what I've seen, it isn't male behavior that differs by area, but female response.

Your sources are self-reporting by women, which means what differences you see are as likely or more to be caused by the attitudes and responses of those reporting as to be caused by that to which they're responding. Some women don't respond any differently to "hello" than to "nice tits, bitch." I've had other women try to impose that attitude on me, and get angry when I didn't share their outrage over the way I've been greeted by strangers.

Too many times, I've heard and read complaints from other women who treat "a man sat next to me on the bus" or "a man said hello to me on the street" or "a man held the door open for me when I exited the building right after him" as street harassment. Even when asked for "serious incidents only" women apply how they felt rather than how the other person behaved as the determining factor for whether the incident was serious or not.

"Creepy guy sat next to me on the bus," for instance - further questioning quite often results in learning that what made him "creepy" was that he smiled once, their eyes met once, or he had physical characteristics to which she objected, like being a big guy, tall, having facial features she found unattractive, and so on. So an incident based on the woman "feeling creeped out" may really be based on her personal prejudices against body types or gender.

Frankly, until you come up with something a lot less subjective than unsubstantiated personal anecdotes, you shouldn't use the word "source" for your back-up arguments.

[–]Frankly_No 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I went through and read several of the comments in those threads. Many of them actually pointed out what I said - that street harassment is rare. One even looks almost exactly like what I've described: "once a guy followed me around a park and freaked me out" can be anything from "a guy went to all the same parts of a park that I was in" to "a guy stayed 3 steps behind me and stared menacingly." The fact is that there are women who don't differentiate between the two.

A few comments mentioned actual harassment, but none of them really support your claim that it depends on location.

Some of the comments more support the idea that the perception that it's frequent says more about the attitudes of the responding women than about men - both in their perception of behavior they interpret as harassment, and their choice to ignore behavior they don't interpret as harassment in order to emphasize that which they do. Women who claim that street harassment of women by men is a rampant problem ignore what doesn't support the claim (men who don't harass them, women who harass women, women who harass men) and focus only on the few incidents that occur, in order to consider those the norm.

[–]Frankly_No -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say how much street harassment there was, just that there's more of it in certain places. Most of the comments in TIA and some of the 2X ones said they experienced little to no harassment, it's obvious from skimming over the pages.

none of them really support your claim that it depends on location

See:

Yeah it seems to happens quite often in big cities in France. I've never had that problem when travelling to the UK, Denmark, Italy or Spain.

I've lived in a few different areas in my state and how often this happens depends on the area. One city I lived in I could put money on it happening any day I went somewhere. The city I'm in now it's once a month or so.

When my girlfriend moved from our small town to a bigger city for college, she experienced her first catcall. It never happens in the nicer part of the city, but in the run-down/low income area, it happens once every few weeks- this depends on how often she walks around that neighborhood.

I recently moved to New York and this is the only placed I've ever been cat called. I was born and raised in Canada and everyone was just very nice, people would compliment me, but it always involved an apology for interrupting me and all seemed genuinely nice.

Its odd, because I live in the South and I am rarely harassed (except by asshole frat boys). However, I moved to the Northeast region of the states over the summer and was "catcalled" all the time, at least once a week. However, it was often sort of sweet, like a random man just walking up and saying "you're beautiful". Not nearly as bad as SJW radfems make it all out to be.

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The context in which you made your statement doesn't leave room for it to be offhand. You made it in response to the statement that the majority of men don't cat call, wolf-whistle, or otherwise do any of the things feminists complain about. That makes your statement an accusation that in some areas, the majority of men do harass women on the street.

That's not an offhanded comment to be taken lightly. It's a social statement to be taken seriously, and vetted for evidence.

Now you're complaining because I've asked for evidence, and called you out on failing to provide it.

It backs up your point if we assume all these women are exaggerating like you believe them to be.

No, it backs up my point because we cannot rightfully assume that any of these women are not exaggerating, misinterpreting, or tunnel-visioning their experiences. We don't have evidence to prove they're not, and we have seen evidence repeatedly in this sub that women do exaggerate or spin when it comes to discussing street harassment.

[–]Frankly_No 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The context in which you made your statement doesn't leave room for it to be offhand.

Yes it is. I threw it together in less than a minute. It's a one line comment on a casual forum, and again, not a scientific journal.

You made it in response to the statement that the majority of men don't cat call, wolf-whistle, or otherwise do any of the things feminists complain about. That makes your statement an accusation that in some areas, the majority of men do harass women on the street.

No, it doesn't. All I said is it was worse in some places than others. If it was an "accusation", or even a refutation, I would've prefaced it with "no" or "I disagree". But I didn't, because the statement was merely supplementing the user's post. If you misinterpreted the post - or if I wasn't clear enough - then the misunderstanding isn't a big deal, and I have since clarified I don't think the majority of men harass women on the street. Yet you're still projecting your interpretation that I did as if it's the only way the post can be interpreted.

Now you're complaining because I've asked for evidence, and called you out on failing to provide it.

I stated from the beginning my sources were anecdotal and weren't meant to be taken as scientific evidence, your expectation of me to provide evidence to your personal standards is, again, your subjective opinion that you're projecting as the only valid opinion. Since you've decided to drop your pretense of civil debate: you are complaining about me not providing evidence to your standards, and of calling you out on your unrealistic expectations.

No, it backs up my point because we cannot rightfully assume that any of these women are not exaggerating, misinterpreting, or tunnel-visioning their experiences. We don't have evidence to prove they're not, and we have seen evidence repeatedly in this sub that women do exaggerate or spin when it comes to discussing street harassment.

As I already made abundantly clear, the evidence I provided was anecdotal and thus shouldn't be assumed as factual. I've even stated they're not to be taken at face value in a previous post ("it's not a scientific journal"). But you've concluded that none of them can even be considered, because of your personal anecdotes of having talked with certain women who you believed couldn't be trusted, which, once again, you're projecting as a reputable viewpoint that's to be taken at face value. You're dismissing my anecdotes as completely invalid, while asserting your own as fact.

we have seen evidence repeatedly in this sub that women do exaggerate or spin when it comes to discussing street harassment

No, we see evidence that some women exaggerate or spin when it comes to discussing street harassment, I have yet to see a study that proves most women exaggerate street harassment. Since you're so keen on scientific evidence, how about you provide a reputable study to back up your claim that most or all women exaggerate street harassment?

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Oh sorry I haven't been to every single somewhat major city in the U.S. Mr. Hotshot. Educate blacks past high school is what I meant. Look at the dropout rate. It should be one of the top priorities of the "mens rights movement" yet people like to assume that their middle class problems are somehow more important than the extreme poor. Ironically, this is one of the biggest criticisms of feminism.

By being overly concerned with race and bringing it into everything you are causing people to not look at facts because they might hurt someone's feelings. You are inadvertently creating an untouchable underclass in the U.S. because any attempt to actually solve problems with a real solution is deemed racist, as though "love" will actually make these people people millionaires. Instead of arguing about whether it is racist or not to admit a problem, get off your high horse and start solving stuff.

Source: Black man tired of stupid squabbling over non-issues instead of actually helping.

[–]Frankly_No -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think we are having a miscommunication issue. I didn't say I thought you had been to every major city in the U.S., just that your post implied you had been in an unspecified number of other cities in which you hadn't seen any catcalling.

I agree that race is a factor we should focus on without being hindered by political correctness, but I think at this point adding it to the mix of MRM activism would be spreading the movement too thin. There's not very many of us at this point and a lot of different issues to raise awareness for.

I think once we get bigger the black community would be an excellent demographic to reach out to. I read a story a couple days ago about a march in a ghetto neighborhood by blacks about fatherhood and having fathers more involved in children's lives, it sounds like people are already waking up to the issues.

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Title	When you check out a girl/woman, what do you actually do?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	2
Comments	43
Date	September 11, 2013 2:25 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1m5djl/when_you_check_out_a_girlwoman_what_do_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-you-check-out-a-girlwoman-what-do-you.1164179 https://theredarchive.com/post/1164179

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