A Serious Question Regarding the Purpose of Feminism

GenderEqualityKing · 2013-07-30T21:56:55+00:00

Hi- I'm a feminist and here is my perspective on all your above questions. It's important to note that I don't speak for all feminists, and this is solely my opinion.

Feminism is, at its most basic level, a desire for equality between men and women. We don't want women to take over the world entirely or outweigh men's right to power. The most common misconception of feminism is that feminists want to "rule the world," hate men, etc. This is not the case, and the perception of feminism has been ruined by a few bad apples who take it to this extreme. I promise they don't represent the movement, or even the majority of feminists.
Yes, if feminism was achieved and we had blanket equality for every issue that plagues us now, then there would be no need for the movement. This seems obvious (I mean that respectfully) because it doesn't make sense to have a movement for equality if equality is achieved. That being said, the likelihood that total equality across all problem areas in feminism would happen all at once is unlikely, as it is with any social issue. Maybe women are paid equally to men at some point in the future, but maybe they still only make up a fraction of governors and we still haven't had a woman president. Maybe America is a feminist utopia, but Russia and many other countries aren’t. Then, the movement would obviously still exist to fix these issues…
As far as your question about the "nice guy" plague disappearing from the face of the earth: yes, it would disappear- not the stigma of it, but the reason the stigma exists, and the behavior of the "nice guys." Because if we were to achieve our goals of equality, men would not view women as sex objects, as many (if not the majority) do… They wouldn't expect that being nice to a woman would lead to the ultimate "prize" of getting into bed with said woman that they're being nice to, and have reason to whine when this niceness isn’t “paid off.” As I just said, it seems highly improbable to achieve all goals of feminism, at least all at once. I don't see it happening in my lifetime or even my grandchild's lifetime, but we're making strides and are better than we were a hundred years ago. To achieve the goals of feminism would take a massive cultural overhaul (and a legal overhaul in terms of abortion rights, equal wages, etc). We would need to re-teach every single person not to perceive women as they are perceived right now by society, the media, etc. No more objectification on magazine covers. No more confusion between a woman being assertive and being bitchy. No more "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape" and victim blaming. No slut shaming.
I guess I just answered this, so see #3 for why the goals of feminism seem unlikely to achieve, at least within the near-ish future. I'm not sure about it being biological in nature. I'm not well-versed in sociology, science, or any sort of professional study on gender roles and I don't want to make any uneducated statements about problems being biological vs. socially constructed.
I'm not really sure I understand your question on the biological urges to procreate... Could you elaborate on this? Women are sexual beings. We may not crave sex as much as men (this actually is a biological fact) but we do like it! Men are socially perceived as the "go-getters," the ones who approach women... Personally, I take issue with this, because I do think that the social pressure put on men to be the first to make the move is unfair and reinforces all that I dislike about the social disparity of men and women. So in a feminist "ideal world" I'd say that this playing field would be even, and both parties would be expected to make moves, etc. (that’s just a basic example). I've already seen this happening from casual observation at bars, parties, etc. Women have started making the first move, hitting on men more, etc. Men can, and do, already claim that they are raped. I'm not one to silence "men's rights" (though I do think any claims that they're as much of a struggle as a women's search for rights is... well, to be blunt, absurd) and this is why... Men can absolutely be raped. Rape is someone pressuring you into having sex when you don't feel comfortable, be it through manipulation or brute force. Most people associate rape with blatant violence and that's not always the case. I don't really see any logical correlation between a desire to procreate (or an erosion of this desire) and feminism... Again, please clarify what you mean to imply with this so I can address it.

I have never seen any feminist literature attacking masculinity directly. I've seen opinions on the effect of masculinity and of the way it's so culturally prized especially in contrast to femininity, and that’s where I take issue with it. If you could point me in the direction of this literature I'd be interested to read it.

The patriarchy is absolutely responsible for instituting gender roles, though women have certainly had their hand in reinforcing them. Throughout history, white men have enforced a lot of unrelenting behaviors towards people of other races, and to women as well, as white men have had all the power throughout history.

Anyone can reinforce gender roles... My parents don't expect me to be a breadwinner in my future partnership, and they want me to have a partner to “take care of” me. My friends laugh at me for being a feminist and being "bossy." I was 2/20ths of the female population in a high school media class and was verbally abused with remarks that I "shouldn't have been a group leader because I was a girl," that I "wouldn't be as successful as any other man at leading and that I should get back to my place in the kitchen," etc. (by the way, my female teachers overheard this and did absolutely nothing to defend me or stop the boys in my class from teasing me). Ex-boyfriends have referred to me as "their piece," have been brutally abusive in the face of any sort of protest on my end about anything… I could do an entire post on the reinforcement of gender roles and misogyny that I’ve dealt with at the hand of lovers, but I digress.

Feminism does not want to abandon femininity, nor does it entirely want to eradicate masculinity (again, see my comments about the problem being the attitude associated with masculinity). It wants women to be seen as an equal even with more traditionally feminine qualities, while also embracing the idea that women can have "traditionally masculine" traits (women who are muscular/heavily into fitness or sports) without being "butch,” and without perceiving “strong women” only as the women who act more like men.

As I've said throughout, women are also responsible for enforcing gender roles. I don’t think we created them (…do you know anyone who would participate in the total social destruction of their rights? Because I don’t) but for a very long while women just abided by social construct, so they didn't really do much to help. And a lot of women, if not the majority, still do.

Important, so I will repeat it yet again: we're not renouncing masculinity. Again, it's renouncing the privilege that has historically come with it.

I'm not a proponent of gender roles because I take no issue with muscular women or little boys who want to wear frilly dresses, and I am a huge proponent of breaking down this social construct of genders. That does not speak for everyone, though, and I could see the validity and basis for separating the identity of our two genders in this way... My problem is deeming femininity as weaker than masculinity, not the fact that the two are separate entities with distinct characteristics.

I've seen problems with denouncing and renouncing masculinity and think it is unfair. It's usually embodied in many teenage girls saying "all men are assholes!" after a bad breakup or experience when really, there's a great deal of men who've been bred by social stigmas to view women a certain way and to expect certain things from women… Not all men are assholes. Rational feminists don’t believe this.

If you want a picture of my own feminist nirvana (that could be a great book title...) it would be this: me waking up in the morning and wearing whatever makes me feel comfortable-- shorts or a dress in the summer-- without worrying about the consequences of this (being called a slut, worrying that I’ll be blamed if something bad happens to me); walking down the streets of the city without one street harasser yelling something crude at me; going to work and getting equal wages and not having someone complain that I’m bitchy when I’m just trying to be assertive; going home to hear something on the news about the gov't that has 50/50 gender representation; and crawling into bed with a respectful man who (a) doesn't mind that my salary is equal to or larger than his, and (b) respects that I am just as worthy of respect as he is.

-Sorry for the super long read but I hope it was somewhat helpful. It's difficult to answer this concisely as I tried to hit every point and also hit every counterpoint that might arise to avoid a super lengthy reply chain.

Mlezi · 2013-07-30T18:39:42+00:00

The goal of feminism is to create a society where all women are treated equally to men. Feminism is NOT about female superiority, and the goal is not to abuse men. Even in first world countries where women are relatively empowered, there is still a wage gap. One in six women will be raped in their lifetime, and more will be sexually abused and harassed. And they are often blamed for it, rather than their abusers. Take the Steubenville case as an example, where the girl was intoxicated and dragged around and repeatedly assaulted. A significant amount of the public wanted to PARDON her attackers, on account of the fact that she was intoxicated. Our culture sees it as just fine to blame the victim, even though the rapist is capable of controlling themselves, even if the urge is strong. Feminists want to destroy that culture, and they want us to teach our children not to rape and be abusive, as opposed to forcing our women to be scared to walk alone at night. Feminism also seeks to empower women in countries where gender equality is even worse. We want to create a world where all women have a right to have an education. Women are still burned with acid, married off against their will, and have had horrifying acts of violence against them, and feminism seeks to end that. Feminists seek to help people who are LGB+ and trans*. Transmen and women are frequently assaulted and abused because of our cultures view of gender roles. Lastly, feminism also seeks to help men, believe it or not. Most feminists are aware that male rape, mood disorders, abuse, and suicide is often ignored or laughed off. Its laughed off because of the patriarchy, what feminists fight against. Our society has belief that if men are weak or abused, it's 'girly', causing male abuse to go unreported in fear of being mocked. A feminists goal is to stop that. There are a lot more goals, but this is a basic summary. To answer the second part of the question, it can be accomplished, but to do it, we need to be willing to change as a culture, and really analyze how we all hurt minorities. To do this, we need men to listen as well, and not wave it off as pointless. We need to teach our children not to rape, not to abuse their partners, and to treat women as equals, really thinking about what equality means. Its a lofty goal, which is pretty sad, considering that treating women as equals should just be decent behavior, and yet our culture is oppressive without us realizing it.
If everything were perfect and peachy keen worldwide, there probably wouldn't be a need for another movement of similar goals. However, that is unlikely to ever happen, considering that lots of people are unwilling to change.
If feminists were to hypothetically accomplish their goals, there wouldn't necessarily be gender roles. Men could work, or they could stay at home and raise children, and it would be normal either way, as with women. There would likely be more women in power, probably a relatively equal amount of men and women. In a perfect scenario, as a society we'd realize that the victim of rape and abuse is never to blame, and an attacker would be punished accordingly. Both female and male rape/abuse victims would be taken seriously. By the 'nice guy', im assuming you mean the idea of the 'friendzone victim'. Im sure they wouldn't cease to exist, but more people would understand that just because you're nice to someone doesn't mean they're obliged to have sex with you. Male privilege would ideally cease to exist, as all genders would have the same privilege.
The goals of feminism are not altogether impossible to achieve, so I'm going to skip this question.
Sexual intercourse would actually be pretty similar. Its a common misconception that feminists think male urges are wrong. By all means, have those urges. Have sex, do whatever. The problem is not that men have urges, but how they ACT on them. If your partner or object of affection says they don't want to have sex, then DO NOT FORCE THEM TO OR GOAD THEM INTO HAVING SEX. This is still perceived as fine by a lot of males, and its why rape is so common. Women could have these urges too, and pursue men, but if the man is uncomfortable and wants them to stop, the woman should be held just as accountable as a man. Men would be able to report that they have been raped without fear of being laughed off, and their rapist would be incarcerated.

To answer your other question, feminists dont want to destroy masculinity, they want to destroy out societies concepts of what masculinity and femininity are so that people can take these things their own way. If you think feminists hate men, youre mostly wrong. Only a small minority of feminists do, and as a whole we do not at all.

So yeah, I hope this answers your questions. I know its long, but please actually read this, because its important that people understand.

Edit: I'm a male feminist. I shouldnt be the one to speak for feminists in general, because I have special privilege due to my gender and havent faced sexism and oppression firsthand. However, since no one answered your question, I decided to summarize it. If any other feminists see this, please by all means, add on to my answers, and correct me if needed.

avantvernacular · 2013-07-30T16:13:03+00:00

I would love to hear a feminists answer this. Sadly, I was banned for suggesting we should not make fun of autistic people for having trouble empathizing.

rightsbot · 2013-07-30T13:56:17+00:00

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Iaintstayinglong · 2013-07-31T03:07:17+00:00

It's only my opinion, I mean, I'm not a scholar in this subject, but here's what I gather about feminism:

1- In practice, there's two types. There's the type of feminist who wants complete equality between men and women, and there's the type who wants more rights for women.

That's really the only question I feel qualified answering to. Now, on a bit of a tangent, please keep this in mind: when meeting a woman, assume she is type 1 feminist. If she is not (and even if she is not a feminist at all), you'll know it soon enough.

rosaucey · 2013-07-30T21:57:24+00:00

the best quote that will forever sum up feminism is: "feminism is not simply a struggle to end male chauvanism or a movement to ensure that women have equal rights with men; it is a commitment to eradicating the ideology of domination that permeates Western culture on various levels-sex, race, class to name a few and a commitment to reorganizing U.S. society so that the self development of people can take precedence over imperialism, economic expansion and material desires." -bell hooks

womyn of color feminism/3rd wave feminism is an intersectional approach to all issues at hand ranging from the prison industrial complex, reproductive health and even to poverty, etc. it isn't just about womyn. it is about ALL people who are oppressed under the systems of oppression (the three being capitalism, white supremacy and patriarchy) so this includes men as well. I don't want to speak for all but for me, the goal of feminism is to put an end to all oppression and to achieve a common understanding of power/privilege and reaching a level of respect for all. There's sooo much more, just wanted to sum it up in a few words.

I do think the goal of this movement can be reached through EDUCATION. If possible, look into reading some books by womyn of color feminist authors (not trying to undermine white feminists but WOC feminist usually have broader perspectives b/c of their gender, race, class, etc).

I don't see why families themselves wouldn't exist. I think only the gender roles wouldn't be outlined for us. I do think that gender itself would still exist because we identify as women/men/agender/etc but there just wouldn't be societal pressures to conform and act certain ways. we would just be who we want to be and make our own femininities and masculinities (and any other gender identities) without being shunned (ex. so a man wants to wear a skirt....it would be a "so what?" type of deal instead of "omg what is he wearing, he must be gay")....So yes i do think gender would still exist just not gender ROLES.

For the question on intercourse, I think it would definitely be more sexual freedom for all as long as there is consent (which is KEY! always). Womyn wouldn't be shunned for sleeping with X amount of partners if they choose to, men wouldn't either, womyn probably would be more open since they wouldn't fear being called a "slut"....biologically I think we are attracted to whomever we are attracted to so i don't see how it would change procreation if the couple(s) wanted to have children.

DavidByron · 2013-07-31T23:05:24+00:00

What is the precise goal of feminism and can it be achieved?

It's a hate movement. There's no specific end goal (unless you count exterminating all men which many feminists advocate for) because there's no end to the hate you can dish out.

When I examine feminist literature, I see almost always a CLEAR attack on masculinity

That's correct. And that's ALL there is to it.

Grapeban · 2013-07-30T18:01:24+00:00

What is the precise goal of feminism and can it be achieved?

Equality between all genders. And yes.

If it's possible for the goal of feminism to be achieved, would it obviate the need for the movement (or would the movement adopt a new set of goals)? By the way, when I ask this question, I'm not asking it in the short term (next 100 years)...I'm asking in the LONG term (the next 10,000)...

Yes, the movement would end once there wasn't a problem anymore.

If it is possible for feminism to achieve its goals, what would the world look like?

Would we have "families" anymore?

Yeah, but the roles within family would be less typecast.

Would there be a "male gender role" anymore? (Or a female gender role?).

Probably not.

Would there be an equal percentage of men and women in positions of power, a greater percentage of women (or men) or would it not even matter?

It wouldn't matter, but at the same time, there wouldn't probably be, on average, more women (because there are more women in the world).

Would the so-called "rape culture" cease to exist all over the world?

"Would rape culture cease to exist all over the world?"

FTFY. And yes, if feminism achieved it's aims across the world. Hopefully at least.

Would the "Nice Guy (TM)" disappear from the face of the earth?

Eh, maybe. It depends, the Nice Guy comes from a feeling of entitlement, and it's possible individuals might still feel that, I don't think feminism will ever get rid of everyone with shitty attitudes.

Would male privilege cease to exist?

Yes.

what would sexual intercourse be like?

More of an emphasis on consent and mutual pleasure.

Would women pursue men just as much as men pursue women?

Probably.

Would men be able to claim that they were raped?

Yes.

Would women be incarcerated as much as men are?

No, but only because you'd have to factor in pregnant women (I know men can get pregnant, but most pregnant people are women), and I don't advocate sending pregnant people to jail.

Would men and women stop caring about procreating?

No.

but if you DESTROY the gender role, what takes its place? Femininity? Nothing?

Nothing. People wouldn't be expected to do things just because of their gender.

And also, who is responsible for creating these gender roles? The patriarchy? And who is responsible for creating the patriarchy? Men? White men?

Everyone. Just, society.

I mean, is it possible for parents to reinforce gender roles...mothers...fathers...brothers...sisters...grandfathers...grandmothers....friends...classmates...bosses...lovers...

Yes, to all those people. As well as just, strangers.

is it possible that WOMEN are also responsible for creating/enforcing gender roles?

Yes.

Or to renounce BOTH gender roles, masculinity and femininity?

You don't have to say, "I'm not going to be feminine/masculine" anymore, that's not what destroying the gender role is about, you simply have to disconnect them from gender. So it'd be perfectly normal for a guy to do "feminine" things, and no-one would expect him to be masculine just because he's a man.

And if you renounce both, again..what takes its place?

A system where people occupy what roles they want.

And should this affect all men? Should it affect homeless men, disabled men, incarcerated men, men of color, older men, obese men, men who are substance abusers, etc.? Or should this only affect white men?

Everyone, everyone should be free from gender roles.

Title	A Serious Question Regarding the Purpose of Feminism
Author	GenderEqualityKing
Upvotes	11
Comments	27
Date	July 30, 2013 1:54 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1jcjar/a_serious_question_regarding_the_purpose_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-serious-question-regarding-the-purpose-of.1167589 https://theredarchive.com/post/1167589

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