Women are responsible too for traditional gender roles and sexist stereotypes.

SsoulBlade · 2020-07-09T22:57:18+00:00

I think I agree with your overall points here.

That gender expectations on men are inculcated and policed by women at least as much as men.
That the above is under-acknowledged in the current discussion of masculinity in our culture.
The "patriarchy" as a term does not describe this situation accurately - one of the reasons why it is increasingly outdated and unsuitable in the present discourse.

Where you blame feminists primarily, I would blame the culture at large primarily, though I don't excuse some feminists from some share of the blame.

It's my understanding that most women today do not identify as feminists. Many even have negative attitudes towards feminism. It stands to reason, then, that the majority of mothers and women acting the way you cite in the linked research and anecdotes are probably not feminists, but have inherited those behaviours from the culture at large - that is, it's just the continuation of long-term cultural standards of gender expectations and male disposability.

As for DV and parental rights, I think again some of this is long-term prejudices about men as more prone to violence, less suited to home life and child raising. I'll agree that some feminists have taken advantage of those prejudices to promote or support sexist approaches such as the Duluth Model or the Tender Years Doctrine, but I think they were merely giving existing biases an extra push into policy enactment.

As for those particular feminists who respond to genuine concerns from men with claims of "fragile masculinity" and "male tears", IMO they deserve all the criticism they can get.

Coxian42069 · 2020-07-10T07:22:40+00:00

I agree with this a lot.

I've always had a lot of trouble with the terms "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy". People who use them a lot always insist that we're misunderstanding them - these terms aren't inherently bad, patriarchy affects men too, toxic masculinity is not intended to blame men, etc.

They often do the same thing with feminism. "Feminism just means gender equality! Feminism is the movement to liberate men!". They often also try to include lgbt people. It's as if they think that the roots of words and the simplest interpretation of a term are completely irrelevant.

And then there's the silence as "The Minority" of feminists use these exact lines to try and crush mens rights groups, and insist than men stay silent in a movement which is apparently for them too. The "Fem" in feminism is important when it suits them.

mhandanna · 2020-07-10T09:50:45+00:00

Source: this great site: https://becauseits2015.wordpress.com/2020/06/07/conscription-a-gender-based-injustice-around-the-world/

One frequently touted benefit of feminism for men is that it frees them from their gender roles like the stigma of crying. However, one go-to method for mocking or attacking men is to label them cry-babies, whiners, complainers, or man-children, labels that clearly have roots in shaming of male weakness and gender role non-compliance. This is evident in a common feminist “male tears” meme, which originated with the goal of making fun “of men who whine about how oppressed they are, how hard life is for them, while they still are privileged”. It’s been used by feminists Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti (first picture), and Chelsea G. Summers (second picture)MIT professor Scott Aaronson opened up on his blog about the psychological troubles he experienced after internalizing negative attitudes about male sexuality, which partly came from the portrayed connection between men and sexual assault in feminist literature and campaigns. He was clear he was still “97% on board” with feminism. Amanda Marcotte responded with an article called “MIT professor explains: The real oppression is having to learn to talk to women”, which included a “cry-baby” picture at the top. Another “cry-baby” attack comes from an article on the feminist gaming website The Mary Sue.

Another example of this general attitude is the #MasculinitySoFragile Twitter hashtag used to “call out and mock stereotypical male behaviors that align with the feminist concept of ‘toxic masculinity,’ which asserts that certain attributes of the Western machismo archetype can be self-detrimental to those who embrace them”. It’s like challenging beauty standards for women with #FemininitySoUgly; that doesn’t challenge those standards, it reinforces them.

Many feminist approaches to sexual assault and domestic violence reinforce gender traditionalism by downplaying or excluding anything outside of the “male perpetrator, female victim” paradigm. Mary P. Koss, an influential feminist voice on rape (and professor at the University of Arizona), says that it is “inappropriate” to say that men can be raped by women. She instead calls it “engaging in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman” (“The Scope of Rape”, 1993, page 206). For domestic violence, the article “Beyond Duluth” by Johnna Rizza of the University of Montana School of Law describes the Duluth Model, an influential domestic violence prevention program in the United States that takes a “feminist psycho-educational approach” to the problem.

Practitioners using this model inform men that they most likely batter women to sustain a patriarchal society. The program promotes awareness of the vulnerability of women and children politically, economically, and socially.

According to Rizza, the Duluth Model is the most commonly state-mandated model of intervention, and the only statutorily acceptable treatment model in some states.

11.5 How do some feminists apply a hyper-critical attitude towards men?

In recent years, a certain segment of feminists has developed slew of terms aimed at being specifically critical of men’s thoughts/behaviour like “mansplaining”, “manspreading”, “male privilege”, “male entitlement”, “toxic masculinity”, “male narcissism”, “manslamming”, “manterrupting”, “manstanding”, “bropropriating”, and “check your privilege” (which is used to ask men to reflect on their biases, but not women). Women do not receive this same critical treatment (at least from feminists; there are places on the internet where people take a similar hyper-critical attitude to women with ideas like “female solipsism”, but they’re widely considered misogynists).

One example of the hyper-critical language and attitude is the Jezebel article on “male narcissism”. The response to the 2014 Isla Vista killings by Elliot Rodger provides many other examples, like a Feminist Current article on “male entitlement”, a Salon article on “toxic male entitlement”, and an AlterNet article on “Aggrieved White Male Entitlement Syndrome”. “Manterrupting”, “manstanding”, and “bropropriating” can be seen in the TIME article “How Not to Be ‘Manterrupted’ in Meetings”. Could you imagine any of these outlets writing articles on “female narcissism”, “female entitlement”, “woman-nagging”, or women being “femotional”?

Author Warren Farrell provides interesting insight into this phenomenon from the decade of his life that he spent as a feminist (from his book The Myth of Male Power, introduction).

“[…] I wondered if the reason so many more women than men listened to me was because I had been listening to women but not listening to men. I reviewed some of the tapes from among the hundreds of women’s and men’s groups I had started. I heard myself. When women criticized men, I called it ‘insight,’ ‘assertiveness,’ ‘women’s liberation,’ ‘independence,’ or ‘high self-esteem.’ When men criticized women, I called it ‘sexism,’ ‘male chauvinism,’ ‘defensiveness,’ ‘rationalizing,’ and ‘backlash.’ I did it politely-but the men got the point. Soon the men were no longer expressing their feelings. Then I criticized the men for not expressing their feelings!”

RobbyHawkes · 2020-07-09T22:59:25+00:00

I think it comes from something deeper than men and women. When you look at animals they too have "gender roles" but you wouldnt blame it specifically on the males and females... its more just something that's innate to the species

SsoulBlade · 2020-07-10T03:56:07+00:00

Off course! Who teaches the young boys and girls over the course of human history how they must be and act?

It is quite ironic how the these teachers tell us society or the patriarchy is at fault when they are the ones in power of what goes into those little malleable brains.

FightHateWithLove · 2020-07-10T14:13:42+00:00

Feminists are responsible the most for gender roles and sexist stereotypes.

They were about 5,000 years too late for that.

Because Feminists talk the most specifically about gender issues there's this perception that they are the dominant narrative on gender. But there's plenty of places, even in the heat of the most allegedly progressive places on earth) where gender traditionalism is alive and well.

I think it's a mistake for any male advocates to focus exclusively on feminism as the problem. There's a lot feminists get wrong. A LOT. But most of their errors come from either selectively holding on to gender traditionalism or even pushing elements of it further.

Eliminating feminism alone isn't going to cause an egalitarian view of gender to spring out of the ground. Gender egalitarianism is not the default, and history proves it.

I agree with pretty much everything else you've said though.

In fact I find value in a lot of what MRA, MGTOW and even Red Pill and Feminists (gasp!) say. But it seems like the conclusion is always wrong.

MRA... "and that's why FUCK Feminism!"
MGTOW... "and that's why we should just give up, watch porn and play video games."
Red Pill... "and that's just the way it is, so let me sell you some PUA material to exploit it!"
Feminism... "and that's why we need to shame men into treating women better!"

I'm looking for "and so everyone needs to reevaluate to make things better for everyone, respecting individuality and common humanity."

Title	Women are responsible too for traditional gender roles and sexist stereotypes.
Author	OkLetterhead9
Upvotes	104
Comments	29
Date	July 9, 2020 9:26 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/hobpv1/women_are_responsible_too_for_traditional_gender/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/women-are-responsible-too-for-traditional-gender.1196814 https://theredarchive.com/post/1196814

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