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Where to fairly discuss feminism with feminists?

okwaitno · 2020-02-03T21:19:45+00:00

I want to discuss and debate with feminists. What is the most popular sub to do that which isn't actually controlled by them? I ask because i already...

okwaitno

February 3, 2020

8 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Post Information

Title	Where to fairly discuss feminism with feminists?
Author	okwaitno
Upvotes	8
Comments	33
Date	February 3, 2020 9:19 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/eye6c7/where_to_fairly_discuss_feminism_with_feminists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/where-to-fairly-discuss-feminism-with-feminists.1200879 https://theredarchive.com/post/1200879

Comments

[–]tenchineuro 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]problem_redditor 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]heellllllln 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]okwaitno[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That’s a good start because i believe we definitely agree on our definition of feminism :)

I guess where I and many other men have an issue with feminism and the public dialogue on feminist topics, is that there are many cases where all men are portrayed as being toxic (search ‘toxic masculinity’) where women are allowed do or say things that would land men in jail (eg the recent Johnny Depp / Amber Heard case) and where men who have been legally found innocent of a crime are accused of being rapists (eg Kobe Bryant). These are all examples of a system that feels at times to have tipped against men on a fundamental level. And furthermore, in many online spaces, it appears to be taboo to even raise this topic without being labelled a sexist/misogynist/chauvinist etc.

Now I’m aware that this is more a shopping list of issues that a debate, soz :) And i’m also aware that i’m stereotyping feminists somewhat, when for example you might not share all those views yourself but still identify as feminist.

Ultimately i just wish that this issue, which i would call “the great emasculation”, was able to be discussed openly and that women and men, who after all should be partners, could acknowledge as such online.

[–]heellllllln 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I see your point and understand the male perspective. To me the biggest issue is how domestic violence towards men is not being recognized. However, when I see men getting very upset that male domestic abuse, or male rape, or things such as that are not getting enough media coverage, that is where I think there is some irony. One of the main goals of feminism is to raise awareness for rape and domestic abuse victims in females, which usually doesn’t get much media coverage at all anyway. And when men complain that people don’t believe that they can be raped etc., it reminds me of the thousands of people telling women that they should enjoy rape, or not believing if the rape happened. So I think some of these issues that men are complaining about and saying are caused by feminism, are really just overall problems that both genders are facing, however, they tend to be in greater volume towards women (actually, I believe that domestic abuse was in greater volume towards men).

Now I believe that most feminists are in raged about false rape accusations. It is already difficult enough to get justice towards actual rapists, when women give false rape accusations, and they are found to be faulty, it makes it much more difficult for actual victims to get help. So I would definitely say that anyone who claims false rape allegations should be punished.

To talk about toxic masculinity, that is a difficult topic to cover, everyone defines that term differently. I do not think that that term is to say that all men are bad, as much as it is to acknowledge that there are some things that men do not realize are different for women and because of that tends to say things that they do not understand are very inappropriate, rude, or sexist.

Now on the feminist side, as much as false rape accusations can be very frustrating to men, and to women. A very very small percentage of rape accusations are false. However, many if not most rape accusations are not taken seriously, or people don’t believe them. I myself had come forward about a teacher at a school are used to go to who sexually harassed me, and nobody believed me, which is not an uncommon problem for women, people tend to think that they are lying, when they are not. That is one of issues that feminism tries to fix. Now I know my response here has been all over the place, mostly because there was no direct question, but feel free to say anything about anything I’ve said, and ask any questions or about any specific topics and I’ll be happy to answer to the best of my ability

Also, I was using talk to text for this entire response, and I haven’t slept in a day, so I apologize if something doesn’t make sense, and I wouldn’t be surprised if I made a mistake lol

[–]okwaitno[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]heellllllln 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BornFreeWE 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BornFreeWE 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for your thoughts. Mostly I agree with you and I am thankfull that you acknoledge male victims of DV and rape.

"And when men complain that people don’t believe that they can be raped etc., it reminds me of the thousands of people telling women that they should enjoy rape, or not believing if the rape happened."

Yes, that exactly reminds me of that too. At least in my personal milieu and expierence people telling that to women or indirect over women is an absolut taboo, same in media. And I am sure all in my milieu understood not only that they can't talk that way but also feel that it is very inappropriate, rude, or sexist. Feminsim has done and is doing a great job here. I know that is still a long way.

There is a salient contrast if it is about male victims. There are still many people who didn't even know that a man can be raped by women. That has to be fixed. Does feminism support that?

" as much as false rape accusations can be very frustrating to men "
No, they are not only very frustrating. They can be litteraly life destroying.

" To talk about toxic masculinity, that is a difficult topic to cover, everyone defines that term differently. I do not think that that term is to say that all men are bad, as much as it is to acknowledge that there are some things that men do not realize are different for women and because of that tends to say things that they do not understand are very inappropriate, rude, or sexist. "

Do feminists care about how this term and others are receipted? From my POV its quite contraproductive to use a term everyone defines differently. That is a buzzword that does more harm than good. It is inappropriate, rude, or sexist.

Let's talk about that "that there are some things that men do not realize are different for women" ... in regular words, please ;-)

[–]heellllllln 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay so lots to unravel here. First off, yes, you are right, false rape accusations can 100% ruin lives which is why I also agree that they should be harshly punished. Not only are they destroying an innocent mans life, but making it more difficult for victims around to globe to get justice.

And there are people who think men cannot be raped which is completely untrue, can and does happen. Since it is in smaller number than women it is not as widely known about, and since it is not well known, male victims tend to be more unwilling to speak up in fear of being ridiculed (not to say women are not also ridiculed for speaking up however the stigma is different). Because it is not well known and not as many men are willing to speak up, people like to pretend it does not happen. I think feminism should encourage rape victims of all genders to speak up and get support they need.

Now I am confused about the last two points. Can you clarify your question about the term “toxic masculinity” and the part about redefining something?

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