so tired of abuse being presented as something women experience from men.

ShitFauxBrains · 2022-04-08T17:11:27+00:00

it's a universal thing that everyone experiences from every gender. feminists act like women have all these exclusive struggles in relationships and life...

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This is one of the few places they're allowed to talk about it without getting "Women have it worse" or having to start their story with "I know women have it worse..." just to talk about it and not get it thrown in their face.

And you very much walked into a thread of "Abuse is presented as something women experience from men" with "well women have it worse"

and then afterward said to all of their unspecified abuse how women have it worse, and that their pain isn't to the same degree of that of female abuse victims.

Like... where do you put the foot when the other foot is in your mouth already?

Edit: So, did you not notice how one of the most common topics here is "Rape by women isn't considered rape because of how the definitions exclude women from being perpetrators, and often men from being victims"?

Edit 2: And the topic of how most men in the USA having at some point in time been held down and their genitals mutilated (by the same people they're supposed to trust) is not even considered a sexual assault, much less a violation of a man's body at all, to people who waltz in here with "How dare you, women have it worse"?

Kindly fuck off.

[–][deleted] 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

3: i know of

means fuck all when the federal definition gets changed to "penetrated by" or specifically excludes "enveloped by" (and then that support services get tied to those federal definitions)

4: As somebody who literally was circumsized myself, I do not believe that that kind of mutilation

I'm so glad abuse and mutilation depend on what you personally believe! We can just let all those rapists go who thought they were doing the right thing, huh? /s

Further proving my point that men can't even get recognition of their abuse: mutilating someone's genitals against their will or without their consent is objectively more harmful to a person than having sex against their will/consent.

especially since the time in which it happens does not allow for memories of the experience to form.

Thats bullshit, it happens before you have any time to form mental defenses against that type of assault on your mind. MRI's show brain activity consistent with PTSD, the "he slept right through it" is their body literally going into shock.

Your childhood forms the foundation of your conciousness, not some thing that just "happened" before you could remember. Doing it before the child is able to speak just means they won't be able to use words to resolve the mental trauma, and more likely to see the abuse as normal (like what is happening here)

The "How dare you?" attitude was only taken with the use of hypothetical rape victims i

So glad you happened to know the trauma of OP, and everyone else in the thread, before you went and made assumptions that even comparing to what women go through was inappropriate.

Seriously, fuck off.

[–][deleted] 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

why do you think I am worse off than a rape victim

Because you experienced an event worse than rape in your life. Because mutilation > rape.

Not that comparing is really all that important, but i absolutely will when someone comes in here with "women have it worse" or any other devaluing of the trauma that men go through. We get enough of your bullshit outside of this sub.

You said that your scenario was the gender flipped version of what you believe I did, meaning that this is a rape support group

"Abuse is considered only to women from men" - OP

"Women experience more abuse, don't say the rates are the same" - you, despite someone sharing their experience not being the time or fucking place to correct somebody, decided to anyway in a context where it wasn't appropriate (and with wrong information, since the rates of abuse are equal if you aren't sexist in how you collect the data, which is a point we've brought up multiple times that you keep ignoring)

so that part of the analogy falls apart.

This is actually the part where you keep proving my point.

Again, if this is not expressly a rape support group built around helping rape victims get over their experiences, then that falls apart as well.

No, it doesn't, because it doesn't have to be only anything for my statement to apply. It clearly applied on a scale of harm with rape being the subject axis point because that would grab your attention, and you harped on that because you no other points.

S.T.F.U.

[–]duhhhh 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

1: I responded specifically to the point of rape being equally common for everybody by pointing out that it isn't.

Response 2. There is a reason you don't know that. Sexism and power hungry agendas.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. /r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years.

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these five threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/oc2yp0/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

And it isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

[–]duhhhh 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

1: I responded specifically to the point of rape being equally common for everybody by pointing out that it isn't.

Response 1. There is the narrative is that rapists are men because for statistical purposes rape has been defined as the perpetrator nonconsensually penetrating the victim. The difference in perpetrating nonconsensual sex isn't nearly as big as most assume.

NISVS 2010 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.1% of men were made to penetrate and 1.1% of women were raped. Look at Table 2.1 and 2.2 on pages 18 and 19 respectively.

NISVS 2011 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.6% of women were raped. Look at Table 1 on page 5.

NISVS 2012 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.0% of women were raped. Look at Table A.1 and A.5 on pages 217 and 222 respectively.

NISVS 2015 showed that in the past 12 months, 0.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.2% of women were raped. Look at Table 1 and 2 on page 15 and 16 respectively

Varies a bit from year to year, but pretty even overall. The numbers for perpetrators vary a little from year to year too. Something like 79-84% of made to penetrate (nonconsensual envelopment) victims are victimized by women. Something like 96-99% of rape (nonconsensual penetration) victims are victimized by men. So in the 2010s, it averages out that a typical year has about 60% men and 40% women as perpetrators of nonconsensual sex outside prisons.

Again, in 2010s about equal victims and 60/40 perpetrator split between the sexes.

If you don't like the CDC -

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

or

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Both those articles are really informative and shocking to people who have just been listening to the narrative

[–]UnfurtletDawn 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Mainly the United States Census

Link. I checked Census.org. I'm not checking ncadv.org (it was the top result)

which is anonymous and thus is less affected by social stigmas.

Peoples perceptions are moulded by social stigmas. It's incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to remove those to answer any sort of questions anonymously or otherwise

Well, it is a phenomenon that disproportionately affects women. However I agree on the abuse of men not being taken seriously point.

There's a few problems with what you've written. You've used a weasel word. Disproportionately is a subjective word not objective and disproportionately affected can be in relation to both victim and abuser -- the latter with regards to being separated from children, family or, friends, for example

A switcheroo:

There are many women who, behind closed doors, are incredibly sexist, and will lash out at men for little real reason

That can and does happen and again, weasel word (many). It's a people problem not a problem associated with a sex

I have personally seen how well some men can hide their abusive natures in public

And? I've seen women being abusive in public 🤷‍♂️

[–]Lionheart27778 16 points17 points18 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Meh, part of the problem is that abuse against men by women in relationships is often just .... accepted.

Man hits woman...monster. Woman hits man... everyone laughs or doesn't take seriously.

Man looks through woman's phone... controlling. Woman looks through man's phone.... accepted...he should have nothing to hide.

Man cuts off woman from friends...girls nights ext.... controlling abusive asshole. Woman cuts off/interferes with man's friends...boys nights ext... accepted...he should put her first.

Man cheats on woman....bastard..what a dog. Woman cheats on man.... accepted...he must have done something to cause it.

Woman has guy mates... accepted. Man has girl mates....he's probably cheating.

These are obviously not blanket examples...and the same things/opinions do happen to women too. A lot of men in relationships are victims of emotional abuse and controlling behaviour from women without even realising it....as a lot of these behaviours are seen as far more acceptable when coming from a woman.

Mental and emotional abuse from women to men is so ingrained into societies views of romantic relationships....than many men and women do not even see the problem.

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Well, it is a phenomenon that disproportionately affects women.

I wish we as a society look at gender neutral domestic violence data instead of studies looking for violence against women.

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

Src: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

Behind a paywall I have archived around, but Harvard research that women are more likely than men in starting or escalating domestic violence and those women are by far the women most likely to be injured in DV. That doesn't say all women injured are perpetrators themselves, but it does indicate the problem goes beyond the feminist/pop culture model of "violence against women".

It includes:

Almost 25% of the people surveyed — 28% of women and 19% of men — said there was some violence in their relationship. Women admitted perpetrating more violence (25% versus 11%) as well as being victimized more by violence (19% versus 16%) than men did. According to both men and women, 50% of this violence was reciprocal, that is, involved both parties, and in those cases the woman was more likely to have been the first to strike.

Read that one again. #BelieveWomen.

Src: http://archive.is/7vuUz

This is a long meta study that shows we've known domestic violence isn't gendered for decades. It is good analysis. READ IT. It summarizes the results of hundreds of studies across decades. Not ONE study. LOTS.

https://connect.springerpub.com/content/sgrpa/1/3/332 or the whole study here http://www.menweb.org/battered/StrausV78.pdf

Popculture article -

https://thedailycounter.com/male-victims-of-domestic-violence-are-they-ignored/

Most domestic violence research today is research of "violence against women" from grants specifically looking for data on violence against women, not gender neutral research.

All that is very much against the feminist narrative that domestic violence is men beating women.

The rates of partner homicides didn't used to be that far apart. Then women got help and resources and the rate they killed their husbands dropped a lot. Men didn't get DV shelters they could use to protect their kids from their abuser without getting kidnapping charges giving the abuser an upper hand in custody, government funded help to allow them to get easy restraining orders, DV intervention public policy and programs that favored them, etc. Therefore the rate that husbands kill their wives hasn't dropped much. Maybe if we want to eliminate the desperate husbands in mutually abusive relationships killing their wives, we should give them better options. That would probably save a lot of women's lives just like doing it for women has saved a lot of mens lives.

"Gender Differences in Patterns and Trends in U.S. Homicide, 1976–2015" by James Alan Fox and Emma E. Fridel. The data comes from FBI statistics ("FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports, SHR").

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/vio.2017.0016?journalCode=vio&

Here's part of the conclusion that the authors came to:

Among all the results already reported, perhaps the most striking and important surrounds the trends in intimate partner homicide, particularly in the context of ongoing efforts to curtail domestic violence. Some researchers argue that the reduction in male intimate partner victimization, a decline of nearly 60% over the past four decades, is because of an increase in the availability of social and legal interventions, liberalized divorce laws, greater economic independence of women, as well as a reduction in the stigma of being the victim of domestic violence. Although at an earlier time a woman may have felt compelled to kill her abusive spouse as her only defense, she now has more opportunities to escape the relationship through means such as protective orders and shelters (Dugan et al. 1999; Fox et al. 2012). As a tragic irony, the wider availability of support services for abused women did not appear to have quite the intended effect, at least through the 1980s, as only male victimization declined.

Here is a graph of intimate partner homicides by sex over the years from the study. Notice the trend for women as they got help vs men that didn't?

https://m.imgur.com/a/6Hx9dJt

God forbid we help men, even if it would save womens lives. The reason women need these resources and men don't is because more men kill their partners. Non-abusive women need to be taught to fear men. We need more one sided services ... if you are a feminist. Non-feminists and anti-feminists consider maybe we should help men too.

I also suggest you look into the feminist Duluth Model of Domestic Violence Intervention which results in men being beaten by their wives being arrested more often than the perpetrator when they call the police for help.

Ellen Pence (The creator) herself has written,

"By determining that the need or desire for power was the motivating force behind battering, we created a conceptual framework that, in fact, did not fit the lived experience of many of the men and women we were working with. The DAIP staff [...] remained undaunted by the difference in our theory and the actual experiences of those we were working with [...] It was the cases themselves that created the chink in each of our theoretical suits of armor. Speaking for myself, I found that many of the men I interviewed did not seem to articulate a desire for power over their partner. Although I relentlessly took every opportunity to point out to men in the groups that they were so motivated and merely in denial, the fact that few men ever articulated such a desire went unnoticed by me and many of my coworkers. Eventually, we realized that we were finding what we had already predetermined to find."

I suggest you read the Overview section of Erin Pizzey's wikipedia page or one of her books. She was the founder of Refuge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey

She created the worlds first domestic violence shelters. After opening several for women in the UK, she suggested that men were being abused too (often by women staying in her shelters) and men needed a shelter too. She was then slandered, her kids were threatened, her dog was killed, bricks were thrown through her windows, and she was removed from the DV organization she founded (now known as Refuge which has just recently lost funding for harming male victims for decades). She fled the country for her childrens safety and became an outspoken DV activist and anti-feminist once they moved out on their own.

That's what happens when a DV advocate tries to help men.

In the US, VAWA replaced the gender neutral Family Violence Prevention and Services Act giving extra rights/services to women and taking services/rights away from men and children. The funding and laws became very gendered. Many of the laws in the act were challenged in court and had to be rewritten. The funding is still very gendered 25 years later, so... We have lots of grants to study "violence against women" rather than gender neutral domestic violence, lots of grants to develop separate programs to "teach men not to rape" and "teach women to report rape", lots of perpetrator intervention programs for men but none for women, lots of DV resources for women but almost none for men.

[–]TesticalDefibrillate 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]UnfurtletDawn 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"disproportionately affects women"

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/men-ipvsvandstalking.html

About 1 in 3 men experienced contact sexual violence, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner during their lifetime.

Nearly 1 in 4 men in the U.S. experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime.

Sorry buddy but it's not disproportionate.

http://endtodv.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Thirty-Years-of-DV-Half-Truths-Falsehoods-and-Lies.pdf

Hundreds of studies have probed the extent of domestic violence.With remarkable consistency, research demonstrates the following:

• Each year, men are more likely than women to be the victims of domestic violence:

o Males: 4.2 million victims o Females: 3.5 million victims

• Each year, men are more likely than women to be victims of coercive control by their partners:

o Males: 17.3 million victims o Females: 12.7 million victims

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It's like going to the doctor for pain without a physical injury. People are dismissive about pain they can't see, and sadly that includes mental abuse.

I dated a girl who seemed completely normal at first, then down the line after I was already invested she told me horror stories about how physically and mentally abusive her ex-boyfriend was (including rape).

I was nothing like him but as time went on in the relationship it became evident that she was taking her anger out on me for what he did to her. She would go out of her way to blow up over every little thing, just because she was still angry and wanted to vent that anger.

So I became the brunt of her anger. She didn't physically abuse me but she was a master at mental abuse. No one can see what she actually did to me, but I'm expected to suck it up because I'm a man.

Thankfully I did not bring that anger into my new relationship. But whoever she dates next could probably continue that circle of hatred if their not strong enough. 😞

Title	so tired of abuse being presented as something women experience from men.
Author	ShitFauxBrains
Upvotes	223
Comments	42
Date	April 8, 2022 5:11 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tz8cvh/so_tired_of_abuse_being_presented_as_something/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/so-tired-of-abuse-being-presented-as-something.1210236 https://theredarchive.com/post/1210236

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