14 women have tried, 14 women have failed at the Marines' Infantry Officer Course (Hamster Alert)

trp_que · 2014-04-04T19:31:55+00:00

For the most part, I think the article is pretty reasonable and rational. If it is indeed true that women only get one chance while men get multiple opportunities, then I would have to agree that it is an actual legitimate case for gender discrimination.

However, I do think that if she was truly ambitious, she would have pushed herself to meet the male standards, despite it not being a requirement. The standards set for women only serve as a minimum baseline and by no means restrict women from pushing themselves far beyond that. Her thinking that lower female standards was a major contributor to her failure is simple lack of accountability on her part.

TooMuchToDoo · 2014-04-04T17:57:36+00:00

I can't say I found anything she said particularly disagreeable, lowering fitness standards for women then expecting the same performance as men is flawed. Keep equal standards and you'll have fewer, but better, women.

She makes good points as well about adding more combat-oriented fitness training, which is true for both men and women and is something the army is (or at least had been) experimenting with.

CharlesODriscoll · 2014-04-04T18:09:43+00:00

[permanently deleted]

BroseppeVerdi · 2014-04-04T22:04:55+00:00

Former Marine, here. Since the author of this article is a boot who has some misconceptions about how the Marine Corps works (it's okay, we all start out as boots), I just wanted to clear up one minor detail:

I was excited to have a shot at the Marines’ premier training course.

Not even close. Although the IOC is obviously very challenging and physically demanding, there are many schools within the Corps that are both harder to get into and have a much higher attrition rate, such as MARSOC, Scout Sniper school, and SERE school, just to name a few. At least one of these is an all-service school, and I'm sure BUD/S probably belongs on this list as well, though I don't know enough about it to comment.

That having been said, I actually agree with her point that we're not doing female Marines any favors by holding them to lower standards. Many of you are, no doubt, familiar with the recent survey that showed that less than 8% of army women opposed opening combat arms occ fields to women. As it stands, women in the military get the same pay for essentially doing less work... this is a pretty cushy status quo, why would they want to change it?

I think this article is objective and well reasoned and I more or less agree with her with the "single standard", although I know a lot of women who wouldn't because their lowered standards make it easier for them to get promoted faster (PFT scores factor into promotions, and boards/cutting scores don't make gender distinctions). In spite of this, I too think she underestimates the physical differences in gender, and I predict that when she goes back for a second try, she'll probably fail again. Someday, I'm sure a female will pass the course, but I doubt it will be her.

TL;DR: While there has been much hamstering on this issue in the past, there is none to be found here here. Swing and a miss, OP.

circlhat · 2014-04-04T18:35:28+00:00

She is asking to be able to retake the test again, just like men are able to take the test again

But I believe that I could pass, and that other women could pass, if the standards for men and women were equal from the beginning of their time with the Marines, if endurance and strength training started earlier than the current practice for people interested in going into the infantry, and if women were allowed a second try, as men are.

She is saying what men have been saying all alone, women should be forced to do real push ups and pull-ups.

The training for women is so easy by the time they get to the marine test they haven't develop their bodies, and they only get one shot, she is arguing if she had of been trained like men since day one she would of had a actual shot.

This is sexism against women, not men, a women should be allowed to retry just as men are allowed to retry.

Blood_Vaults · 2014-04-04T21:49:14+00:00

IOC is one of the hardest schools the DOD offers. It's no surprise.

The Combat Endurance test is the killer when it comes to female officers. One of my former Platoon Commanders devised a toned down version of the test for my platoon during one week where we had nothing going on. When all was said and done he estimated only 4, maybe 5 of us would have passed if we were going through the legit course, out of a platoon of 30 seasoned enlisted Infantry Marines. The test will surely bring you to the threshold when it comes to physical endurance, MOS knowledge, the ability to think and perform under pressure, and mental toughness. I've been to some pretty tough schools in the USMC and IOC is supposed to be up there with BRC (Basic Reconnaissance Course) and all the high speed MARSOC shit when it comes to difficulty.

alphamale31 · 2014-04-04T22:59:52+00:00

If you're a woman and serious about joining the military you should be working out years before in preparation.

Because face it, you do have to work harder then a man to meet the requirements, sucks but its true. There not going to change the standards.

2014-04-05T00:40:38+00:00

They might as well give women a second chance if they give men them.

But i love how women so often quickly glaze over men's physical superiority as "more upper body strength" Yeah that and more lower body strength, athleticism, explosiveness, speed, endurance, size, toughness, and so on.

2014-04-05T05:12:47+00:00

This is actually very well written. She's not trying to say that they should lower standards but build women up from the beginning to meet those standards. To express ones concerns, disappointments, and valid observations isn't hamstering.

iluminatiNYC · 2014-04-04T21:27:47+00:00

First of all, this is interesting because I know a former (male) military policeman who is 5'3" and around the same weight as an in-shape female. Of course, he won his weight class 4 years running as a high schooler wrestler and is pound-for-pound the strongest person I've ever met. I want to run this by him and get his thoughts.

That said, I think the woman interviewed kept it real. There are certain combat jobs that women have been able to hack, but Marine officer training isn't among them. She then suggests a few ideas that may or may not help. Not wrong. Not necessarily right. Just honest. She stepped up, took the L and is moving on with her life. Nothing wrong with that.

Manuel_S · 2014-04-04T20:16:36+00:00

"Female lieutenants aren’t as prepared as male lieutenants for the Infantry Officer Course’s tests of strength and endurance because they’ve been encouraged to train to lesser standards."

This is perfectly reasonable. Woman is not hamstering. Though she IS underestimating the effects of gender differences.

Making the experience and still seeing no women get through - that would be very valuable for our society.

cooltrip · 2014-04-05T09:54:44+00:00

They'll probably use the same hamstering techniques they use for Science Nobels or Olympics: Science Nobels and Olympics are sexist.

Title	14 women have tried, 14 women have failed at the Marines' Infantry Officer Course (Hamster Alert)
Author	CharlesODriscoll
Upvotes	32
Comments	40
Date	April 4, 2014 5:25 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/227fav/14_women_have_tried_14_women_have_failed_at_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/14-women-have-tried-14-women-have-failed-at-the.230518 https://theredarchive.com/post/230518

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