CMV: The Red Pill, in part, is a Social Justice Warrior forum

[deleted] · 2014-11-10T18:27:59+00:00

Classically, "justice" (especially corrective justice or distributive justice) referred to ensuring that individuals both fulfilled their societal roles, and received what was due from society.

Wow, by that definition none of what is commonly called SJW actually is SJW.

exit_sandman · 2014-11-10T14:39:07+00:00

CMV? Well...

1) As you've pointed out yourself, TRP would be about adapting to reality instead of changing it. Your observations are correct (there is loads of outrage porn and social critique on the main page of the sub), however, long-term members already called those who opened these threads out on it and told them to take that stuff to the MRA sub where it actually belongs.

2) Even if we're talking just about the segment that would be prone to that behavior, we still have the problem of political affiliation. Because if there was a definition of SJWs, the political camp they belong to would be a huge part of it. Glossing over that just defeats the purpose of a concept. It's kinda like decrying Islamic fundamentalists as "Islamofascists" because some of them are comparable to actual fascists in some ways, yet using that lingo probably adds more to confusing than to clarifying issues because of the existing differences.

That said, you do have a point - a segment within the redpiller community behaves like some kind of "inverse SJWs", as TRP as a whole often behaves a lot like "inverse feminism". However, the question is how much you want to dilute certain concepts because their approach and outlook on life may be similar to that of their polar opposites, only with inverted roles.

TomHicks · 2014-11-10T14:45:32+00:00

To me, a "social justice warrior" is an individual that is particularly concerned with the implementation of social justice.

TRP doesn't advocate trying to change society into not rewarding arseholes. TRP advocates being an arsehole (paraphrasing) so you'll get rewarded by the arsehole-rewarding society.

The linked threads are all critical of modern gender roles. They criticize the structure of society.

They are critical of the male provider role, sure. They aren't critical of the hyper-masculine, aggressive, promiscuous ripped jock stereotype. TRPers looking for LTRs LOVE the feminine, submissive, nurturing female gender role.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-11-10T18:18:39+00:00

This is a difficult dispute because it's a semantic one.

Before we even get into whether trp is "in part" an SJW forum, we'd need to figure out what an "SJW" is.

The problem is that you're taking the definition for "Social Justice" from wikipedia, which is very generic. The term SJW may derive from "social justice", but the extra word "warrior" adds considerably more connotation to the term that you're ignoring.

What you're doing is analogous to someone innocently point out that "white rights" should be supported by everyone, because they're just demanding rights. So why are "white rights activists" so hated by leftists? Because they see context/history in addition to the very base definition of "white" or "rights".

Yours is a fallacy of composition. Beyond that, it's an informal derogatory term.

Colloquially, SJW is almost always used to refer to leftist/ultra-progressive groups. This is supported by the myriad of comparisons between SJWs and reactionary groups. A well-known one on reddit is /r/StormfrontorSJW. People on ppd have discussed the Horseshoe Theory using SJW as the extreme left opposed to extreme right ideologues.

Beyond extreme right ideologues, the term is a derogatory one and used to label those that oppose the entire spectrum of counter-progressive groups, even ones that only moderately associate/sympathize with MRAs (the dichotomy of which has been discussed and argued for/against by various people on reddit).

The very premise of your view is based on a flawed understanding of what "SJW" means.

Time4Red · 2014-11-10T19:02:25+00:00

Social justice is a code word for vote for liberal corporatism / fascism instead of republican corporatism / fascism.

Social justice warriors are liberal tea partiers. .

They are also a good at spreading divide so the rulling class can rule in peace.

goatismycopilot · 2014-11-10T15:03:39+00:00

I sometimes wonder if the SJW feminists and the TRP people should just be dating one another, they have more in common. The field reports would be more fun to read at any rate.

Kerberos- · 2014-11-10T14:59:41+00:00

I know this is a CMV thread but well I can't help but agree. This has been discussed on TiA many times, SJWs and RPers are just two sides of the same coin. The way they think (we're the good guys, they're the oppressors!) is identical, RPers just think women are baddies whereas SJWs think men are the baddies, and both communities force tight control of conversation. It's horseshoe theory, the extreme right and extreme left are pretty much the same thing.

Time4Red · 2014-11-10T15:36:02+00:00

Just complaining about perceived injustice doesn't make you an SJW, what you try to DO about it does. SJWs want to achieve their goals by censoring and taking over everything in the world until their is total ideological conformity. They are totalitarian. That TRP is also complaining about "society" doesn't put them in the same camp, because of their solutions, which are individualistic and don.t involve legislation/censorship/gulags to enforce ideological conformity. TRP is individualistic and leaves it up to each man to change his little slice of the universe for himself and HIS benefit, it's not collectivist.

MRAs are SJWs. There is overlap between MRA and TRP, but it is one of agreement on certain DESCROPTIONS of how our culture and humans work, not prescriptions for how to change it or if it should even be changed. There's a lot of ideological and character diversity in /r/theredpill , but you will find little or no SJW type attitude in the actual materials and blogs Red Pill ideas come from.

GayLubeOil · 2014-11-10T22:52:41+00:00

Cool Story but. Red Pill does not tell women how to behave. Red Pill tells men how to adapt to women.

Time4Red · 2014-11-10T23:18:58+00:00

The issue is that you're taking "social justice" as meaning what it says instead of what it means. Social justice is just a term, the people who use it are most certainly not concerned with justice in any form.

It's like saying that the US is just like North Korea because North Korea is a Democratic Republic and... well, you get the idea. (No US politics arguments please!)

Old_Pine_Tree · 2014-11-10T16:18:20+00:00

Interestingly, I don't think your view needs much changing as your construction is relatively valid and sound as far as I can tell. I would raise two points: first a distinction, then a clarification.

In every group there is a disparity between the ideology and the actions of its adherents. This is not to lobster-bucket the issue, but to point out that while individual actions may be worthy of criticism, the core principles or ideals of the ideology remain unaffected. We can laugh at radfems or rail against religious extremists, but that should never be regarded as a credible refutation of the source feminism or religion. Same applies to those RP men who are more interested in criticizing women than asserting their personal value.

Second, any justice component of TRP should be viewed through the lens of the modern individual and their inherent agency, and not regressive, traditional roles enforced collectively which is the typical BP frame. In other words, I don't want my partner in the kitchen because she's a woman and that's her place, I want her in there because she loves cooking and baking and it is an effective, satisfying use of her time. Because she has allowed her internal direction to take precedence over external messaging, she is quite isolated from many of the opportunity cost issues young women face from being told they are special snowflakes who deserve to have it all.

SirNemesis · 2014-11-11T08:17:56+00:00

To me, a "social justice warrior" is an individual that is particularly concerned with the implementation of social justice.

That is one of the stupidest definitions I have ever seen. The vast majority of people care about social justice. A small percentage have an over-simplified view of social justice and tend to see all social justice issues as a war between the oppressed and the privileged, and they tend to lack any nuance in their viewpoints. These people are called social justice warriors.

[deleted] · 2014-11-11T20:54:02+00:00

The Red Pill is a "Just World Fallacy" epiphany.

MagicGainbow · 2014-11-13T19:02:32+00:00

Op is looking for mensrights methinks, they are the ones that want change and fairness.

SquidwardsEuphoria · 2014-11-13T23:49:14+00:00

There is definitely an unnecessary victim complex and imagined oppression going on, but the thing that separates it from the Tumblr brand of SJ blogs is that seasoned TRP'ers just accept reality and change themselves to benefit from it as much as possible, whereas people on Tumblr will attempt to change society to benefit them: ie "Why aren't the Disney princesses fat and genderqueer?" or "Why won't men stop being attracted to thin women? Find fat women attractive or else!!!!1"

zephyrprime · 2014-11-19T16:48:17+00:00

I have to agree. RedPill is a SJW domain - it is simply on the opposite side of the spectrum than traditional SJW. I personally value RedPill as a societal movement that will hopefully counteract some of the harmful things that liberal social mores since the 60s have brought us.

RedPill4LYF · 2014-11-10T16:30:56+00:00

I think there's much more to TRP than it just being a platform to churn out a different breed of SJW. We're the ones who acknowledge reality. We don't try to bring the mountaintop to where we stand, we learn the skills necessary, and put in the effort and training required to scale the mountain and conquer it.

jacks1000 · 2014-11-10T20:18:27+00:00

So you admit that TheBluePill is garden variety, left wing, Social Justice Warrior-ism?

Title	CMV: The Red Pill, in part, is a Social Justice Warrior forum
Author	Time4Red
Upvotes	16
Comments	85
Date	November 10, 2014 2:19 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2luyvd/cmv_the_red_pill_in_part_is_a_social_justice/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-the-red-pill-in-part-is-a-social-justice.284391 https://theredarchive.com/post/284391

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